It seemed that one of the Potomac judges was giving handling lessons in the ring today during regular classes, or seemed to be scolding handlers. Is this common? I know each judge can run their ring anyway they want...but I was curious what is acceptable in the US for what judges are allowed to say to handlers/exhibitors?

I often seen it done and most of the time it is appreciated and welcome information, especially for a newbie. People don't learn if they are not told/shown any differently.

Last time I saw it done was to another breeder judge who really needed them as they did not even have the collar on correctly.... Oh my!

If you are the one in the ring and don't like what they say to you, ignore them!

If you don't like that judges way, don't enter under them.

If I'm not showing my dog to his best advantage, I WELCOME a judge telling me what they think I should do differently.

I greatly prefer that to those judges who barely look at the dogs because they are too busy looking at faces and could not articulate what they like or don't like about the dog five minutes after the class is over.

And sometimes the judge really, really likes your dog, but you're doing nothing to help it, so they give you a suggestion so that hopefully that glimmer of beauty that they saw can come out and be shown to his/her best. I've found that when judges do this- they really like your dog and honestly are trying to help you.

A couple of years ago I watched a young woman with a GSP who totally over handled her bitch. Too much baiting and she couldn't keep her hands off the dog. You could tell the judge really liked the dog and she gave some quick help to the handler. The handler was still pretty much all over her bitch but she did go on to RWB but I always got the feeling that she would of taken WB if the handling had allowed the judge to really see the dog. After the breed was over the judge called her over and spent several minutes with the handler giving her some fast handling tips. The young lady took the tips to heart and when we watched her the next day we saw a huge improvement and saw just how lovely her bitch was. She went on to to take WB the next 3 days.

I think this judge is brilliant. Best time I've had in a show ring in a long time.

my husband was showing a bitch of our that got RWB two days in a row. The judge said to him the 2nd day, "not good wearing dark gray pants with a black dog" Maybe we would have taken the points if he had on tan pants. But he won't forget. When he got dressed he didn't even give it a thought even though he knows better.

Constructive criticism and good advice is always helpful. Rudeness and nasty criticism is never helpful.

I agree. I was showing in a puppy class and got an earful about my girl's behavior as well as all the other puppies in the class. There wasn't any helpful info, just criticism. I welcome helpful pointers also, but that wasn't what I received.

The judge was giving more than handling lessons. She was condescending toward the dogs and the exhibitors, was quite rude and slapped at some exhibitors hands. I have never seen such! Constructive criticism can be a good thing but this was not constructive criticism; she really needed a lesson in manners.

This thread should be removed immediately.

From what I saw, this Judge should shop judging. You could tell she was discussed with some exhibitors. Her facial expressions told the whole story of what she thought of you or your dog. I am not sure what this Judge did for a living before retiring but I am betting she taught school. She might be a lovely lady but maybe that is how they do things where she comes from. She is now on my "never show to this judge" list.

I showed to this particular judge at another specialty. I happened to be next to the eventual class winner, a well-known breeder whose dog was obviously lame. She saw it--it was hard to miss--and had the breeder go down and back twice. Watching, she said to me "(the breeder) thinks I don't see that, but I know what (the breeder) is trying to do. Can't fool me." And she gave him the class anyway!!! And yes, she was very outspoken all day long!

There is constructive comments and there is plain rude. This judge was just rude!!!

You mean like the rude comments made on this list about the judge--behind her back.

The comments being made are not rude; they are based on fact and they are the truth. The comments are not being made behind anyones back - the judge is more than welcome to read the comments.

It is important to understand that judges have preferences as to how they wish to see dogs presented. Certainly, there are differences in how dogs are shown in different areas around the world. Rules, apparently can vary as well. I am a long time fancier and breeder who attends this show from a great distance, and I can tell you that this is the only place I have ever seen two handlers on one dog. Where I come from, that type of thing is considered double handling, and would be severely frowned upon, and certainly would be fodder for 'handling lessons.' Please understand that this comment is not sour grapes.... I did not have dogs entered. It is just an observation.

No Akc representative present on site during the show. So how would you lodge a complaint at that time, not later after the show?

The Club Committee was told. And this judge actually took the lead out of an exhibitors hand and double corrected a dog her self! She was vocal to the crowd about the reasons for her placements ,and said out loud that dogs appeared unsound , said loudly to exhibitors to to "take their fat dog to the other side of the ring" , this sort of thing went on the entire time ! She continually threw her hands in the air when making her choices and shook her head in disgust ! Had there been an AKC Reg on the grounds , she would have been severely reprimanded. I doubt anyone wil pay an entry under her again.

She also loudly called several dogs "stupid".

She also loudly called several dogs "stupid".

the ring steward was wonderful and tried to mediate on several occasions as best she could. I for one did not here her say to bring the dogs in on an "english" lead vs a slip collar and lead, so I am sure I was silently reprimanded.
nothing bad to say other than my dollars will go elsewhere.

Kudos to the Ring 1 steward!

There is no judges selection committee anymore. It was done away with and the board is now selecting judges. The committee should be reactivated. The club usually asks for feedback about the show and that might be a good suggestion.

AKC reps usually don't attend Specialties. I don't know why.

I am a larger person. I cannot move a dog like others do. I have been told many times to have someone else move my dogs. Sadly at all breed you are not allowed to do this. I LOVE to handle my dogs in the ring. Sadly my showing days will come to an end soon. I do not mind a judge giving opinions. That is why we go under them. But all in the way it is done I guess. I personally would love to see more dogs excused for temperament issues. One judge told a handler ahead of me that she should take a two by four to her Labrador because he kept jumping up. Uncalled for
comment.

If you feel a judge is not doing their job them complain to AKC.

This is a visiting judge . There are disciplinary actions that the AKC can take when there are issues with with an AKC licensed judge's behavior or performance. Does anyone know if the AKC has any reoourse with visting judges?

It saddens me to see the way people are talking nasty about this judge. You are making just as bad if not worse comments than any that she may have made.

I showed to her. I paid attention to what she was doing in the ring. I knew how she wanted her dogs presented to her. I also did not bring fat or unruly dogs to her-that in itself is rude. I showed a puppy to her. She started to go over her and said, thank you for not jumping on me.

You also have to remember that the judges are not from this country. Some of their comments I found to be of "British Humor". I got it. I laughed. I did not take it seriously. I did not feel I was reprimanded over anything I did in the classes. I took photos with the judges afterward and found them both to be very informative and pleasant. They had a big job to do and I think they did it well.

And for the "doubling handling" comment, this is very rude. I saw the very well-known breeder who was forced, due to health problems, to have someone move the dogs for her. The smile on her face as she watched her dogs move and the joy she felt with each dog was priceless. Why would you deny this person that experience because she is no longer able to run with her dogs? It was evident that she still loves to show her dogs. Saying she shouldn't be able to do this anymore is just cruel.

I thoroughly enjoyed my Potomac experience. I even brought home a few ribbons. It's just sad that a few of those who feel the need to find something wrong have to be so vocal and rude about it.

JMHO

I was one of the exhibitors that received IMHO some rude and VERY unprofessional comments from this judge. But what I can say is that I was told by a friend of mine that she was spoken to because so many exhibitors were complaining... On her last day of judging, prior to my knowing this, I witnessed a kinder,quieter, more patient judge.
I would not ever show under this judge again as I felt she was not a 'teacher' at all. She did not give many exhibitors the time to make the changes she felt were necessary to show the dog to her specifications. She was critical and mean spirited because exhibitors were not well versed with her protocal for showing dogs. And she was very loud and vocal about it. She obviously was not enjoying herself and made sure many of the exhibitors knew it and were not happy as well. And while it makes sense to show a dog in a british slip lead to a UK judge, I never heard once from the steward or anyone else that she did not want any other kind of lead and collar in her ring. Nor did I hear she did not want exhibitors to use food or toys which she herself told me.. I appreciate it when it is posted outside of the ring if there are special requests from judges so that I can comply. I am not a mind reader. In any case, I paid my entry fees and feel if I am polite, listen to the judge and do the best that I can do, my dog and I deserve respect from the judge assigned to my class. I do my job, the judge needs to do his or her job...Just my 2 cents worth.

It's just sad that a few of those who feel the need to find something wrong have to be so vocal and rude about it.


Sad:
It is very fortunate for you that you were able to exhibit your puppy the exact way the judge preferred you do so and you enjoyed your class... I also watched and saw people using bait and toys so assumed it was OK to do so... There are many degrees of experience when it comes to the handlers in the ring at such a large show... I would think a judge would make some accomodations, especially in a different country for such variations. I speak not nasty or rude of my experience with the judge, but of facts. I am not fond of threads that are negative and generally there are a handful of people trying to stir up trouble.. This is very different. There were a substantial amount of exhibitors, of varying experience in the ring, whom had issues with this particular judge. I think it is our right to voice how we felt about our experience. We all paid a substantial amount of money, in this poor economy to attend this show and to enter our Labs. I also think it is important that the subject was brought up to the judge. It obviously made a difference in her interactions the next day. Perhaps she realized that a few modifications were in order.
I am pleased you had a nice experience. I also had a great Potomac as well. But it is what it is......

I watched the judge go over dogs. I saw how she liked the dogs presented to her. I saw how she ran her ring. I did use a squeaker and bait, but not to excess. I saw how she lined up her winners and understood how she went about doing it.

I recently read an article about how many judges, in the US, feel that they are treated rudely by exhibitors who do not pay attention in the ring. I saw a recent example of this a few months ago by an exhibitor who was too busy chatting with others in the ring that she was not paying attention to how the judge was running her ring. The judge was short with her and repeatedly had to tell this handler where to put her dog. The handler came out of the ring after not placing and blamed the judge because she wasn't clear. Hello? IF you had been paying attention, then you would have known what the judge wanted to examine your dog. This person has been showing for years.

I know there are varying levels of exhibitors in the ring. I agree judges should be patient. But everyone has a bad day now and then. It's just hard to examine a dog's bite if they are chewing on a huge chunk of bait or a hard piece of bait. It's hard to go over a dog that is jumping or lunging at a toy.

I just feel sad that a few people have to come voice their complaints on a public forum. I know I'm not the only person who had a positive experience with this judge either. There is a time and place. I just don't feel this is the place.

JMHO

What about the regular males' judge? Not rude but such a bad one! I was wondering if the LRCP was still having a judges' committee.

I was told by a friend to go read this thread -- I have and will offer my humble opinion for what it is worth.

I was not there so I don't know the game players; judges or exhibitors. I can assume some of the exhibitors but would not want my whole life's earnings or who was there.

I offer my thoughts from a few perspectives: an exhibitor, a judge (obedience) and a show chair needing to know AKC rules.

As an exhibitor I do expect the judge I show under to know the standard as much if not better than me, I expect courtesy in asking for the judge's opinion, I expect to be treated like all other exhibitors, fairly and that you are judging my dog, not necessarily my handling skills, or my choice of clothing, or lead and certainly not who I am. I also should know that I should do my best to show my dog to its best, to know what colors give a judge a difficulty is ascertaining what is going on with my dog, i should have trained my dog so that it is under control and not needing so much bait that the judge is watching my dog have a meal. I owe the judge the respect of what they have been asked to do and while I might not agree with the decision, know that it is just one person's opinion on a certain day. I have had judges who did not know me make a comment to me to make it possible for me to take a win, sometimes as simple as a collar adjustment- it was done because they liked my dog and that little something would make it obvious to people on the outside this is who s/he should take. I have an obligation to be aware of how the judge wants my dog presented so if they want a down and back and then stack - then that is how it needs to be done after all it is their ring, their way to evaluate.
On the judge's side I owe each exhibitor my full attention to judging their dog, not what they are wearing or who is in the next ring or coming up, etc. It is a honor everytime to be asked to judge because somebody ( the club) has found me worthy to give an opinion. I need to treat our newcomers with some gentleness so they will continue to come back and not to think because it is so and so showing it must be a good dog. Each dog should stand on its own merit not on who owns it or is handling it. Comments are usually best not to be given unless you are called upon to critique. As a AKC rep once told me you are less apt to get into trouble by keeping your mouth shut. As a judge I expect that people have taken time to get their dog in shape and that they have taken at least a second to see how I would like a dog presented- I think it is little to ask when I am going to be on my feet all day and have to give the same command over and over again . In obedience we have to give commands so that is our lot for the day but I expect the same courtesy and respect that a breed judge should get and I know that for the most part, exhibitors don't want our comments.

now as far as AKC. There are few reps left. In obedience we have 3 left for the whole country to cover specialties, trials, tracking, rally, new judges, people appling, people wanting to move out of provisional. I don't know the numbers left in conformation but they also have been severly reduced. Our club now has not had a rep in 3 years and will probably never see one again because we are small and have managed to keep our noses clean. Reps usually go to big shows where the chance of trouble and violations more apt to happen. They go where new judges need to be observed, interview upcoming judges, observe when a complaint has come in on a judge -- so a handful of people to cover the country. For the most part specialties have not come under that deep scrutiny. The last time I saw a rep at a specialty was some 20 years ago but that rep was going to be at 2 all breed shows the days following so she decided to make a visit. I remember well because she reamed me out for having an under age puppy on the show ground.
As a club we try to get info from exhibitors for judges for the future and we have complaints about a judge in how they handled exhibitors in general or their stewards, they may go to the black list never to be reinvited. In nearly 15 years of being a chair, I have made an report about a judge once but the list is much longer over not to invite again. A foreign judge unless you are quite sure about that person is really a crap shoot. The only thing you know is that they are approved in their country and know english-- anything else you will find out at the time they judge. I am sure if AKC is contacted it will go on file and while it cannot discipline a judge from another country, I would hope that if the name came up again for another panel the file would be reviewed. I don't know if their is ever any correspondence between countries on judges actions

I don't think anyone here is talking behind anyone's back. Whatever happened is obviously distressing to many people. The best way to take action against a judge is not to show under them again. You are always free to tell the club your displeasure and you can write to AKC-- as Americans we do pride ourselves with speaking our peace.

Truth of the matter is, most of the dogs were ill mannered and the other half were fat. I mean, come on people. I saw more saggy rolling toplines last week than ever before, dogs who's bellies barely cleared the grass. Its not substance, its fat! More dogs jumping around like fools, barely able to stand still for one moment. How are dogs with that temperament supposed to work as a guide dog?

The judge was very kind and gave my girl a placement, and thanked me for having her under control. And she was still wagging her tail.

Labradors were not bred to be guide dogs. Their ability to do that job is a bonus not a requirement. There were plenty of fit dogs at Potomac this year. Dogs in general are happy creatures. I had no problem with them jumping around and showing their great temperaments and personalities.

Agree!!!! Who wants to see a mopey sullen dog in the ring? They look like crap. If the judge has had labs herself she knows their happy spirit and should expect it and appreciate it.
I must say the birthday party crew was just as happy as their dogs.

There's a time and place for everything and jumping up or fidgety dogs is not a behavior I like to see in the ring. An alert, tail-wagging, happy dog can be evident with all four paws on the ground, you don't see other breeds behaving like this in the ring. Some like to call it "animated" but I think it's more a training issue.

I personally dislike being jumped on in the ring by another's dog. "Ohh he likes you!" seems to be the going excuse. Just plain rude.

Yes, and this "animated" Lab knocks down and senior or a child and seriously hurts them? I agree "4 on the floor" rule. No matter what breed.

A visiting Judge. Her ring. She explains how she would like dogs presented. If you don't like it. Excuse yourself and take up agility.

Why do I think you weren't?

Are you addressing me???? (Jeanne) for not attending????????????????

Not you, Jeanne. They were addressing Show Dogs, who must have been attending a different show.


By LRC Directors - Saturday March 24, 2012.
SILVER coat color in LABRADORS—Official Statement

There is no genetic basis for the silver gene in Labradors. The silver color is a disqualification under the Standard for the breed. The LRC does not recognize, accept or condone the sale or advertising of any Labrador as a silver Labrador. The Club opposes the practice of registering silver as chocolate.

After reading thru this long thread...what was the reply from the show committee to the exhibitors about the rude judge?

My comments regarding 'double handling' were not meant to be rude.... merely an observation that I had never seen this done anywhere else. I didn't know it was allowed.