Well what ever year it was that this "mess" got started- something caused the registration of the silvers as chocolates. They are currently registered and on their paperwork says their colour is chocolate.

So now at the great Potomac, an issue that has always had a buzz gets blown out of the water because one of these silvers goes HIT.

What is happening in all the post I have read is there is lots of talk but not much listening and that is usually why we get nowhere.

If you are going to bring something to AKC and LRC then you will need proof of issues, proof that these dogs are bringing health problems in your lines that were not there before, proof that it was weim introduction and not some genetic spoof. It has to be more than passion.

We have seen that 1:100 ( just picking a number here) puppy that turns out brindle or spotted white like a dalmatian. You have a choice here, put the puppy down, neuter it before it leaves your home or sell it as some unique rare dog. Maybe the first silver was an "oops" mating but what came of it were puppies people liked and the breeder continued. Do any of you really have the answer , do you care or just have your own agenda and shut your eyes and ears.

I am not saying I am for 'silvers" - I am just saying come out of passion mode and go scientific if you wish to go anywhere.

We also all know some well known breeders who have in the back room bred to produce some labradoodles. OK we know they are labradoodles but why did those folks do it--money? so when we start throwing those rocks we need to be careful it does not fall right back on our heads.

In this day and age of genetics, I bet you we could get some answers.

Flame suit back on.

I have a question. How is Silver different from the different shades of yellow,(Red, White, Cream) being sold out there? They are not registered as Red, White or Cream but as yellows. And they are very often marketed as aggressively as Silvers as being "rare." Aren't all of these colors just "mutations" of what we already have?

Just wondering to myself, don't care one way or the other. I like my dogs yellow, black or chocolate!!!

Genetically, the gene that varies the shading in yellow is something that was always present in the labrador breed. Shade variation has been there in yellows and in chocolates (to a degree that you can see this in a dark colored dog). The silver folks have PROVEN that there is a dilute gene (the same in Weims, Dobes, and other breeds) which when present "silvers" the actual color of the dog. This dilute gene was never present in Labradors until a certain point when they started appearing more readily. The question is IF the gene was always present, why did it not appear more often and earlier in history than just the last 20 years?

So while it seems to be the same as Yellow and their shade variation, it's actually not. The only similarity is that it has to do with color.

Think of it this way. Blondes in humans can vary from person to person in shade but they are still all caucasian. Get a person with blonde African-American hair, you can cry all you want, but you don't get that hair in a Caucasion. There HAS to be some African-American genes in that person. It's not something that stems from spontaneous mutation. Same with Silver.

There is a big difference; silver is the result of a fairly recent introduction of a dilute gene which was not present when the stud books closed on our breed. Variations of the yellow shades have been there from the beginning resulting in our standard recognizing the yellow color going from light cream to fox red.

Would DNA on a labrador with another breed in it show up in a test? Is DNA the answer to determining where the dilute gene came from?

If silver breeders are looking for real recognition as an approved color, wouldn't in be incumbent on them to prove that their dogs are, in fact, labradors?

I don't know enough about the debate to know if silver breeders are looking to be accepted, but DNA is being used in many areas now to prove and disprove a whole host of things. Seems this might be helpful.

I do understand, of course that all breeds have other breeds in them WAY back (some more than others). I wonder if it would be a futile search.

I own 2 "scottish fold" cats. This adorable breed began when a farmer in Scotland found a kitten in his barn that had "folded" down ears. He thought it was cute so he bred this cat to one of his other british shorthairs (the british version of the american domestic shorthair). Some of the kittens had folded ears and others didn't.

This began the breed of the scottish fold. Those that didn't have folded ears carried the "folded" gene.

The breed began in 1960 or so. Not that long ago. The folded ears are the result of a genetic mutation that causes the cartilage not to form on the ears.

To me, this is very similar to the silver labrador......it's roots are suspect, but it will grow to eventually be accepted. Maybe in 25 years, maybe more, maybe less.

Scottish Folds are accepted in CFA (the AKC of cats) as a breed that can be shown. Breeding them is problematic because you can't breed 2 "folded eared" cats together without major health problems. So responsibility is paramount with this breed.

Will silvers have similar problems? I suspect they already do and if the gene pool is small, it will only get worse with time.

I am not advocating for silvers, in fact quite the opposite, however it is probably coming.

Big difference Edie, the Scottish Fold is now considered a separate breed of cat, there is no such movement by anyone on the acceptance of the various shade of Labradors that carry the dillute gene to become a separate breed.

Gregg, Your point is well taken. Maybe that is exactly what we should be working toward. Silver labradors need to be a breed of their own. I for one think the silvers have come from weim crosses. I feel it would be a huge mistake to corrupt the labrador retriever breed by adding a color choice to officially include them. We have been fighting the good fight for a long time, and that would be playing into the silver breeders' hands. Proponents think adding silver as a color would allow breeders to avoid accidentally placing well bred labradors with silver breeders. To me, that seems like a cop out. As with all things, breeders need to do their homework.

I think you answered your own question - "red", "white", or "cream" are SHADES of yellow. The dog is still yellow. "Silver" is not a shade of liver/chocolate; it is a completely different color. As such, it should not be registered as chocolate because it isn't.

How people want to market their dogs does not change the color of the dog.

That would be up to the people who breed silvers, not the LRC or the AKC. In the mean time, we need to protect our lines.

The difference between Labradoodles and silver Labs is only that the Weimaraner has a short straight coat like a Lab. Both are mutts. The problem is Silver Labs have been bred to purebred Labs for so many years the Weim has been diluted all but the color.

At least the Labradoodle folks have the decency to call it what it is...a mix between two breeds and not an variation of either of the original breeds.

The Weim does not have a coat like a Lab. It is short, strait and single. The Labrador has a double-coat. This is an easy way to spot the weim in the dilutes. Their coats are not even close to a true Labrador.

This is no "debate." A debate, by its nature, must have a proposition side, and an opposition side, i.e., both parties must be participants to the discussion. You all get off on thinking you can dictate our future. You must understand, that due to your vehement unilateral approach, anything you may attempt to force upon us will only be met with disdain and revocation, and if needed, litigation. If there is to be an amicable solution to be achieved through debate, then the debate should be a real debate.

I just find this hilarious and pompous.

Litigation??? Go for it. You have my name.

Where's the "Love" button when you need it?

Reply to ROTFL

Debate... Poor choice of words in the for the thread Head.

Your right this is not a debate. It is a discussion. I am not willing to debate this issue, but would like to clarify and discuss with fellow breeders how we now continue within our breed to keep it pure from the dilute gene and the ones who want to exploit it.

Fact: The dilute gene has been introduced

Fact: The dilute gene that produces a silver colored dog has been allowed into the population by AKC allowing the registering of these dogs as Chocolate

Fact: The so called silver, charcoal and champagne colored dogs carry 2 copies of the dilute gene, as it modifies the Black, Yellow and Chocolate color.

Fact: The dilute gene is a recessive and 2 dilute parents are needed to produce the dilute colored dog in all 3 colors.

Fact: Carriers of the dilute gene appear Black,Yellow and Chocolate and are therefore registered as such.

How do we proceed to keep the dilute gene out of the gene pool if we cannot see a hidden recessive by appearance other than DNA on all our breeding stock?

Any Breeder breeding to perpetuate the dilute gene is breeding against the Standard for the Labrador Retriever.

This is not a debate.

Ok maybe poor choice of word but there is a debate-- those folks who say this is a dilute gene, then others who say weim was introduced-- which is it- call it discussion, call it what you want -- we are not getting anywhere

This discussion needs to be brought up to AKC and concerns raised and I'm sure they will say well what does LRC say

So lets stop bickering, cool our heads and ask folks who can give us answers about how things might be changed or should be changed

Ask the LRC to recommend a dilute gene DNA test before breeding. What's one more clearance and it's relatively inexpensive, a small cost to keep this gene out of show lines. Stud dog owners should be asking breeders for this clearance now!

AMEN

You know what, while I don't like the idea of labradoodles, they are what they are and no one is saying any different. They are a poodle/lab mix. If those folks want to make them an AKC recognized breed at some point in time, so be it. That's their project, their battle.

If the Silver lab folks LOVE their color so much (because that's all it is with these dogs), start a National Club, get your breeders registered, start a stud book, create your OWN BREED. Go for it. These dogs are not true labradors, but if folks love them and want to breed them, let's call it what it is. A NEW BREED. What I don't get is why they don't want to. They argue that these are real labs but the TRUE labrador community (including the National Parent club) does not accept the dilute gene as acceptable. So why fight an uphill battle if you love your silver so much. Gain your own credibility. It's common knowledge that all breeds start from a mixture...fine...so silvers stemmed from labradors and whatever else...weims, whatever other breed...fair enough. Now develop your own breed and shut up.

With all due respect apparently all traces of the Weims have not been diluted entirely. Proof is in the body types, eyes, ears, etc. Most do not look like Labradors to me.

All you have to do is look at most web pages to see the Wiem still right there, long noses, long ears, thin legs, funny eyes. Please. Can you say MUTT.

It all started with a LIE and that was done when they said the dogs were Chocolate and they are NOT.

All AKC papers should be taken back because they signed a LEGAL document and LIED on it!

Culo, Kellogg & Beaver Creek probably don't even exist anymore - check your pedigrees people. Check OFA for some of these and you'll find SILVER!

Check it out. . . . .

Jean, the dilute gene is NOT naturally present in the Labrador breed; it IS present in the Weim, among other breeds. Do you understnd now? There are not 2 schools of thought here - they are saying the same thing.

Jeanne you need educating about the silvers too. I don't understand why she jumped into the original thread and began this 1 if she doesn't understand it.

You don't need your flame suit with me. I don't enjoy seeing flaming, I sure don't do it. But if you don't understand the topic, then why do you jump in with both feet? This isn't the 1st time I've seen you do this.

I'm ignoring the silver topic. It' all manure that tbird wants us to believe in. The bickering as you call it won't stop, look at the photographs of the supposed silver labs and as a lab breeder you don't understand that they're not full bred? Would you keep a yellow, black or chocolate that had their conformation to show? I highly doubt it.

We need to ask the LRC and AKC to put their feet down about a color that doesn't exist, not to just throw them in with chocolates. That's bizarre.

We need our parent group to get AKC to band with their recent statement which was good. Now let us see if the LRC will stand by their words in March.

If you have questions Jeanne, speak to the long time breeders that have the true answers to this silver problem. We need to make it go away already. They're the same as Labradoodles. Mixed breed mutts that cost $2500 plus shipping! I had never seen 1 except on a websight until I was at the recent Potomac indoor venue. That dog looked like it was completely a Weimeraner, not a sign of Labby in him. It's a shame more conformation folk missed out on this, they might have educated a couple of people.

If we want to protect our breed from the silvers, it's up to us to figure out a solution. The parent club has had plenty of time to solve this problem and nothing has been accomplished .... zero.

I think you are talking to a dead horse, the person above you IS a silver breeder

AMEN!

Actually, The first Labradoodles in Australia were bred responsibly with a concrete idea of creating a well tempered hypoallergenic dog in mind. The Silvers have always been bred for money. They don't love or even see silver, they love and they see green!

I don't think that either group, Labradoodles or Silvers, are going to get organized to produce well bred dogs. They will not spend the time or money doing that and they do not care about the dogs.

So, if the general population ended up understanding that Labradoodles are a mix breed with a lot of bad temperament and health issues, we (By the standard breeders) need to start telling the truth about Silvers, Champagne, and charcoal OUT LOUD!