There has been a lot of misinformation on here regarding dilute (silver, charcoal, and champagne) Labradors from both sides of the debate and I thought I would add my $1.00. These are my opinions based on research and knowledge and experience in genetics.

First of all I do not believe that early silver breeders (Beaver Creek, Slusher, Culo, Mallard Lane) were cross breeding Labradors and Weimaraners. I believe they stumbled upon the dilution genes while breeding black, chocolate, and yellow Labradors. It was a very small gene pool and isolated to U.S. field lines which is clearly evident from examining early silver pedigrees. Those first breeders quickly learned that they needed to inbreed heavily to keep producing the color pattern. If an unknown line was introduced the resulting litter would not be silver however they would carry silver. Silvers were thought to be a mutation of chocolate and therefore chocolates were used for breeding. It was only in the last decade that coat color genetics were more understood and the dilution gene was used not only to create dilute chocolate (silver) but also to create dilute black (charcoal) and dilute yellow (champagne). Dilute black dogs are most often referred to as “blue” in other breeds. The Weimaraner is a breed that has been selected to be dilute liver (silver/gray) but also appears in dilute black (blue).

Mother/son and full brother/sister and father/daughter breedings took place generation after generation in order to yield silvers and again this is evident in early pedigrees. Yes other chocolate dogs were used in the breedings such as Lawnwood’s Hot Chocolate who appears in almost all chocolate dog’s pedigrees here in the U.S. if you go back far enough. This of course does not indicate that Hot Chocolate himself carried the dilute genes. If he did then we would all have dilute genes in our dogs which of course is not so.

How and where the dilution gene was introduced is the question.

At the time of the early silver breedings (1960’s and 70’s) there were many breeders of show type Labradors here in the U.S. and in the UK and all over the world for that matter. Most kennels here in the U.S. were importing dogs at that time from the U.K. since they had been breeding for decades and had the type people here and all over the world wanted. Our show dogs all stem from dogs bred there and those dogs are the direct descendants of the very first Labradors cultivated there.

Silver dogs have never been produced anywhere except the U.S. Mary Roslin-Williams has been quoted many times as having seen “gray puppies” however this is a reference to a soft gray puppy coat that sheds to a normal shiny black coat by 6 months of age. If she indeed witnessed dilute dogs then she herself would have had them in her lines since her dogs ran through many kennels at that time. I have seen soft gray puppies myself. This is not the same as a dilution. Besides the great MRW there have been many many wonderful dedicated long time breeders of Labradors in the UK – Sandyland’s comes to mind. They bred thousands of dogs in the last 50 – 60 years and never produced silver. I know many long time chocolate breeders here in New England who were instrumental in bringing over chocolates from the UK in the 60’s and 70’s from lines that had been going on for decades over there and again no silvers. For those that would disagree I encourage you to contact them yourself. They did not kill silver puppies or hide them or think they would take over the other three colors.

Newfoundlands can be gray (dilute) and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are dilute as well. Yes they share a common ancestry with our breed however Labradors are not black and white and Chesapeakes are not black and Newfies are not yellow. The individual breeds were selected during their early development for varying characteristics such as size, coat length, and color. The dilute genes that were present in the very early St. John’s Water dogs were clearly lost when the Labrador was developed in the U.K. This is obvious by the fact that dilute Labradors have never been produced in the U.K. nor have they been produced from 100% show lines of dogs imported to this country.

So where did the dilute gene come from? Since early silvers all share the same U.S. field background it’s safe to say that a large field kennel here must have inadvertently introduced the genes or perhaps on purpose. In the 20’s and 30’s there was still cross breeding occurring in Europe introducing size and bone and coat to the show type Labrador and so this may have been happening in the U.S. as well pairing those early Labradors with Pointers or Setters to produce better hunters. Kellogg kennels was a very early breeder of field type Labradors as well as other retrieving and pointing breeds. The first “Pointing Labradors” were a product of their breeding. A few “old timers” remember Gun Dog ads from the 1950’s in which Kellogg kennels advertised both Pointing Labradors and “Gray Labradors” for sale.

Because dilutes have been allowed to be bred and AKC registered for all this time there is no going back now. They have also expanded pedigrees and many contain show lines. Many silver breeders mistakenly still believe that just because a champion appears in their silver’s pedigree it indicates that dilute genes were passed from show lines. Again this is not the case. Many dilute breeders are attempting to breed them with more type and I’ve seen photos of some that appear more like show type dogs however the majority are still very fieldy. Also most are still not performing any health clearances on breeding stock.

Silver breeders today claim there are more lines that have produced silvers that do not go back to Culo or Beavercreek or Slusher lines. They want to keep these lines a secret. Why I honestly have no idea. I was given a pedigree a few years ago that had produced dogs that carried the dilute gene. I was shocked. The pedigree was 100% show. I was later informed that there was a potential “sire issue” and that one of the dogs in the pedigree was “most likely” not real sire. This made more sense. The dogs from that litter do appear in silver breeder’s pedigrees. This of course can and will occur and there’s not much that can be done.

Dilute breeders for some strange reason often think we are jealous that a silver will “beat” a black, yellow, or chocolate or that our puppy sales will decline. These ideas are of course ridiculous. Most of the general public either have no idea silver Labradors exist or have a negative connotation of such dogs much like Labradoodles, etc. There are plenty of people and will always be plenty of people who desire a black, yellow, or chocolate Labrador. Since dilutes can not compete in conformation per the standard there is no issue with one winning over acceptable colors. So why are breeders mad? Because of the lies perpetuated by dilute breeders and their lack of common sense pertaining to a breed we love and are passionate about protecting.

As far as DNA testing no we can’t prove ancestry. There has never been DNA “mapping” done on any silver Labradors proving they are purebred. This is not possible. The $100,000 challenge was a joke. I contained Dean Christ about that and right away he wanted me to place $100,000 in an account and I had 30 days to “prove” silvers were not purebred without access to any of his dogs. Seriously? It was just not possible.

For all intents and purposes the dilute Labradors of today are Labradors. They have been bred for many generations. My issue has always been that the dilute gene was isolated in such a small population in a country where the breed did not even originate.

A standard is vital for a breed. It’s a blueprint to follow. It’s open to interpretation within it’s limits however a disqualification is black and white. Any color other than black, chocolate, and yellow is a disqualification in our breed. Purposefully selecting for a disqualification is incorrect and detrimental to any breed of any species and should not be tolerated.

I vote for a statement from the LRC that would be clear and concise in addition to their statements already on their website. “We believe that dilute Labradors or those carrying the dilute gene should not be bred.” This would raise question with those researching a silver as a pet and with dilute breeders themselves.

Look, the war is over. The people who breed dilute colors won. Their dogs can be and are registered as purebred Lab by one of the most prestigious registries in the world, they are already getting AKC titles, and they have well-known show dogs in their pedigrees. Their dogs are an accepted color--chocolate. Yeah it doesn't look like the chocolate we know at shows, but it has been defined by AKC as a purebred chocolate Lab. So what? Variation in color occurs all the time. The fox red is defined as yellow as is the nearly white Lab. No two blacks are exactly the same color of black.

Now that the war is over, it doesn't matter how dilute colors happened. We can hypothesize all we want. We will never know. Lost in history. Eventually, if they want to do it, people who breed dilute colors will produce a dog that has the right conformation to win at a dog show. And then the **** will really hit the fan. But the war is over folks. They won years ago.

No they didn't win. Silver is not the same as yellow. Different gene determining dilute vs. the shading on a yellow.

You can be sure as hell that the show folks that care will NEVER let their pedigree knowingly be associated with a crap dilute pedigree. I say KNOWINGLY because we all know that the sheister silver folks can obtain dogs from good pedigrees through alternative methods, duping folks etc. And there will always been the "good" breeder that opts for the money vs. holding out.

When a silver breeder produces a silver dog (not a factored dog) that looks like any of the dogs that competed in the Potomac conformation show, they lets talk. But I doubt ANY silver will be in any conformation show, because boiled down to the lowest denominator, silver is a DQ on color. It's not brown. It may be registered as brown and get you INTO the show because of the AKC registration, but I would be $100 that any shitty AB judge would have enough sense to not put up a non-typical brown dog.

Thank you, Sharon, this is great--well written, factual, researched, concise, non-emotional!!!
Everyone concerned with silvers being bred and shown should read Sharon's post again and again.
An issue for me is: IF a silver is registered as chocolate, gets shown as a chocolate, and is of outstanding conformation according to the judge's interpretation of the breed standard (key word here is "judges interpretation"), that dog could conceivably get points towards it's championship. In fact, a previous poster says there are silver champions already? I'd like to know who, how, and when...
Most reputable breeders/exhibitors find silvers to be of poor breed type, most are Weimie-looking, but this could change in the next 5-10 years.
I once saw a dog in the ring be disqualified due to color. A judge asked several exhibitors, myself included, if this dog was a fox red (she had never seen one before) and we all said no. The dog was a Viszla red, and looked in type like a Viszla/Lab cross. The dog was disqualified in that judge's ring due to color. The exhibitor was a newbie and insisted that the breeder sold her the dog as a show-quality fox red Labrador Retriever.
I think the possibility exists that a judge may NOT feel comfortable disqualifying due to color because they don't know any better and don't want to make a statement in the ring. And it's not fair to judges to have to bear the burden to make that assessment. AKC does not educate judges on the silvers nor have they taken a stand on show-worthiness of silvers. An exhibitor of a silver could also contest his dogs' disqualification with AKC and win because AKC is not willing to take a stand.
I agree the horse is already out of the barn, that silvers are here to stay, but how do we as breeders educate AKC about the color and get them to make a ruling? I see a greater controversy in the future then there is now, unless AKC takes a stand.

A significant issue that Sharon did not mention is color dilution alopecia which has been reported in silvers.

http://www.lab-retriever.net/board/general-health-issues/7352385-anyone-have-experience-alopecia.html
http://www.dermatologyforanimals.com/coloralopecia.html

I don't think the judges are going to have a problem. In your example with the fox red, I think if the judge has any question if the dog is black, yellow or brown, it's OK to DQ for the day. Although for reds (which are yellows in the OFFICIAL STANDARD), it's a shame the judge didn't know...putting aside that some exhibitors questioned the quality of the dog.

I am perfectly willing to be fair and allow judges to DQ anything not black, brown or yellow if it serves to eliminate the possibility of a silver placing at a show. But then again, I haven't seen ONE silver on any breeders page that even LOOKS like a real labrador.

I am curious as to how the dilute gene impacts eye color (in addition to coat color), because the eye color in these does is completely wrong and in no way conforms to the standard. Outside of pictures of "silvers", I have never seen this eye color in any other color of Labrador; I have seen it in every Weim however.

IF a silver is registered as chocolate, gets shown as a chocolate, and is of outstanding conformation according to the judge's interpretation of the breed standard (key word here is "judges interpretation"), that dog could conceivably get points towards it's championship."

No this is incorrect as are the comments made by the dilute breeder in response to my post. If that person knew anything about standards and/or conformation they would know that silver is not a "shade" of chocolate. Breeds which have standards accepting dilution colors separate the colors. A blue Chow Chow is NOT the shade of black. A blue Chow Chow is a BLUE Chow Chow and a black is a black.

Blue is not a "shade" of black in any breed standard.

The same is true for silver. A silver is simply a dilute liver. There are not many breeds that allow for a dilute liver. Of course the Weimaraner is a breed that is nearly always dilute liver. Poodles carry the dilute genes readily which dilutes many different coat colors in their breed however again the colors are separate and not simply shades of one another.

So a dilute Labrador is a disqualification per the standard and will therefore be disqualified from showing in conformation.

Also the AKC does not need to "take a stand". The AKC relies on parent club's to present standards. They don't care one way or the other about the quality of a dog's pedigree. Money towards registrations is always green.

Yes Nancy you brought up yet another issue. Dilute dogs are known for increase skin issues.

I think the only thing I can agree with is that there is a foreign dilute gene that was introduced after the stud books closed. As for where is came from and from what time period, it is again, more conjecture. Can we see photos of Kellogg's "gray" dog? Do we know his genetic makeup? We also know that Kelloggs tried to develop a line of pointing Labradors. Aren't Weimaraners a pointing breed? How do we know that in the later years they didn't do a few crosses themselves to bring in the pointing characteristics of the weim? Again, we will probably never know exactly how and when the dilute gene was slipped into the Labrador pedigrees, but the one thing that still remains unanswered is why is it that every dilute still have the breed characteristics of Weim? Even after 25 years of breeding dilutes, they still have kept those traits.

Every show breeder and judge will tell you that these dogs look like a Weim mix and dismissed by them as such.

No, I am not a dilute breeder, though it wouldn't make any difference if I was. Calling me names is simply your demeaning way to discount what I am saying. But it won't make it difference. I can read the handwriting on the wall. Dilutes are, can, and will be registered as purebred Labs, color chocolate. AKC already took a stand. Dilutes already have AKC titles. They have conformation dogs in their pedigrees with conformation titles. The war is over. AKC will never rescind the stand they have already taken. They recognize these dogs as chocolates. End of story. Horse out of the barn.

Yeah, a judge can take a stand (and hopefully not be sued for taking it). But you can't stop the inevitable. At one time even chocolate was not an accepted color. And yellow wasn't either. When these colors were accepted the dogs didn't look like they do today. They had terrible coats and heads and conformation. One step at a time. The dilute colors are now embedded in our gene pool--however they got there. They will show up in a conformation show, just like they have shown up in other shows. The war is over. Some day you will be standing in the ring with one of these dogs.

Guess what people no matter the color, the breed etc. We all see different things in everybody else's dogs and at the end of the day We all still have to scoop up our dogs shit!!! So get over this topic and move onto some good and informative topic.
Thanks

Chocolate (liver) and yellow have always been acceptable colors. There was never an early standard that ever disqualified for anything other than black. DUH! There goes all your credibility.

I gotta love how you threaten a lawsuit if a judges does his or her job and disqualifies a dilute because it is NOT a shade of brown, black or yellow. It is a dilute and not black, chocolate or yellow (with a black nose).

Dilutes will never be an acceptable color. Not only do they continue coming up with the weimy looks, but they have a number of skin and health problems that we don't want or need in our breed. Thank you very much.

I never called you names. I am also not naive. You are most certainly a dilute breeder.

You are also misinformed and 100% incorrect. AKC does allow registration however it does not allow dilute dogs to compete in their conformation shows. This is fact.

I encourage you to call or email AKC. They will issue you a statement which will clearly state that dilute Labradors are ineligible to compete in AKC conformation shows. I know this since I have done so.

Again the AKC does NOT make decisions regarding breed standards. The parent clubs of the individual breeds do so. Again I encourage you to contact the LRC and they will also issue you their opinion as a collective body of Labrador breeders and enthusiasts whose opinions influence the breed.

Also you are misinformed regarding the colors of Labradors and the history of the breed. Yellow and chocolate were always present. The original Labrador standard called for black and black was most desirable and shown however yellows and chocolates were "registered" and bred right along side. Times were different back in the early 1900's and "registration" simply meant the dogs records were kept. Individuals of chocolate and yellow were still kept by breeders and kennels for whatever reason. As the popularity of the breed grew the need to allow the chocolate and yellow was evident. A yellow standard was drafted and chocolates were judged by the black standard. Again as the breed grew the need to merge the standards into one for the Labrador retriever was allowed. The first Labrador standard in the UK called for dogs to be wholly black, liver, or yellow.

I for one do not appreciate snarky remarks. It does not serve your opinion nor the side of dilute breeders in general very well. It is evident that you are defensive and given what is likely to happen in the future regarding dilutes, rightfully so.

Registering a silver as a chocolate is the same thing as registering a white as a black. It's fraud, and the only thing enabling it to happen is AKC's logistical inability to visually inspect dogs being registered. As for one day standing in the ring with one... maybe so, for the few minutes it will take the judge to mark the judge's book with "Disqualified - silver coat color". Trust me on this - the AKC will absolutely not question the decisions of a judge in the ring, especially not regarding this issue. @surrender gracefully: I'll tell you what. I'm judging at a show the end of June and entries are still open. Go ahead and enter a silver. Please.

Is it my understanding that you are now basing your opinion on me (and calling me out on a personal level which again speaks volumes) on semantics? Yes anyone can "enter" a conformation show. I could enter a Beagle into a Labrador class at a dog show. The show committee would take my entry fees. The dog of course would be disqualified. When I say that a dilute is "ineligible" to compete that is what I am referring to - the dog will be disqualified upon entering the ring. Any coat color other than black, chocolate, or yellow is a blatant disqualification that any breeder or all-breed judge will readily recognize.

Conformation showing did not begin in earnest until the 30's and 40's. Prior to that a "dog show" was an event that showcased local working dogs. The smaller gene pool of the recessive liver dog and the epistatic yellow does make individuals more difficult to breed towards a desired type compared to the much larger populated dominant black. That did and does not have nothing to do with "playing catch up".

I'm actually not sure what you are arguing at this point? Or what point you are trying to make? Is it that dilute dogs will someday become pointed/champions in the AKC show ring? If so that is simply not the case and again I encourage you to contact both AKC and the LRC as I have done before telling me I am incorrect.

And I must ask why the anonymity? Me thinks dost thou protest too much.

Sharon you are my hero! Thank you for taking the time to put this together.

While we will never know with 100% certainty how Silvers came to be, though I am inclined to agree with Sharon, they are here, the best way to deal with them is to educate people on the matter. And if someone wants to go and spend big bucks on a silver, I guess that is their business, just as if someone wants to buy a doodle.

All we can do as breeders is protect our stock that we have control over. Someone had inquired about one of my chocolate pups, wanted to breed it to their golden to see what they would get. You think they got one? Surely not. But what is to stop them from getting one from the man down the street? Nothing in my power. We do what we can and the rest we have to let go of to a degree.

As far as chocolates in the standard, it reads:
"Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."

Last I knew, chocolate was brown, not silver and I think there is a clear enough distinction. If I am ever in a ring with a silver, I will say something about it being a DQ as per the standard. Maybe we need to change the standard to read "brown" instead of "chocolate" or even "liver".

Some of the dilute breeders have bred out the light color in the eye. I have pictures of 7 week old dilute blacks and dilute chocolates with normal brown eyes and also have a file of dilute factored dogs with brown and pumpkin colored eyes. These are from the old lines as well as the outcrops.

Sharon, Thank you for posting calmly about the silver Labrador. I am sorry for whoever seems to be attacking you here.

"Dilutes are, can, and will be registered as purebred Labs, color chocolate. AKC already took a stand. Dilutes already have AKC titles. They have conformation dogs in their pedigrees with conformation titles."

So, we still have no confirmation of this, can we really believe you if you provide no proof?
Name me one dilute that already has a conformation title of CHAMPION (AKC or any other registry)????
Name me one dilute that has ANY AKC title, for that matter.

Thank you, Sharon. This is the most clear, concise, and informational post I have seen about the source of the dilute colors.

Well, at least if they have to verify DNA, we would know who the parents were.

Sadly, I think we have no hope of bringing back the past when things were simply black, yellow, and chocolate. The damage has been done. Now we can only decide how we are going to live with the results.

"Mutations can occur spontaneously and simultaneously in several dogs at any time and anywhere and in any breed."

This is misleading. An organism as complex as a dog is not a virus with limited rapidly changing alleles. Mutations in "junk DNA" can occur spontaneously however the rate of mutation in alleles as stable as coat color, length, and other physical characteristics is extremely low.

Dr. Sheila Schmutz of the University of Saskachewan has identified dilute genes in silver/charcoal Labradors which are the same as any other dilute breed of dog - the MLPH gene.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html

Silvers have been bred now for over 50 years. The improvement in type is minimal in a handful of kennels who have been able to squeak a show dog in here and there in the pedigree. The majority are very fieldy and type does not appear to be on the forefront in the mind's of most silver breeders and neither is health or working ability. Producing silvers and charcoals in a litter is pretty much it and that also keeps them from branching out and using a nice show dog since they know the offspring will only carry a dilute gene. Bearing that in mind along with the education we are providing for responsible breeders and future silver breeders, I highly doubt that a silver will possess the conformation of a typical show Labrador any time soon.

One of the biggest issues is the lack of knowledge and experience that keeps dilute breeders truly ignorant. They simply do not know what they do not know. They believe the misinformation that their mentors spew. They don't know what a true show type Labrador should look like. They haven't sat ringside with a breeder who has been breeding chocolates since the early 70s, or an English judge who has been breeding and judging for 30 years and how both really don't even want to bother with silvers since they have never seen or heard of anyone they know producing them and firmly believe that they are mixes and have no place in the breed. They obviously have not called the AKC or the LRC to find out the exact details of the disqualification or listened to dog breeding seminars that warn of the problems of purposefully breeding with blatant disregard of a standard.

Thank you Sharon for your knowledge and effort to elaborate on this. I applaud you.

We are deciding right now how we are going to live with the results. It might work out differently than you think.

I will leave the windmills to all the Don Quixotes on the board - my days of romantic chivalry are long past! BTW good post Sharon, well presented...

However, there are a few historical inexactitudes being thrown around and they deserve clearing up. Published in 1879, the "Breed Points for the St. John's or Labrador Dog" did require a "rich jet black" coat without rustiness. BUT this is not considered the first official Breed Standard.

The Kennel Club was only founded in 1873 and the Labrador was first shown as a separate breed in 1903. It was not until the LRC was formed in 1916 that the official Breed Standard was drawn up. One of the factors that influenced its formation was the fact that the 1915 Labrador dog CC winner at Crufts was sired by a purebred Champion Flatcoat! So, guess what? Breeders didn't start messing with genes yesterday! This original standard stated "The colour is generally black" but added a pretty nebulous phrase: "Other whole colours are permissible".

As Gregg mentioned, yellows stood little chance at shows at that time, thus the formation of the Yellow Labrador Breed Standard which lasted from 1925-1959. Chocolates were not even considered, but they certainly existed. According to Helen Warwick, yellows of the time suffered from incorrect ears (size and carriage) and topaz eyes. Does that ring any bells?

It is only in the revised 1950 standard that the three accepted colours were described in detail.

May I suggest there is not much we can do about the genes that have crept into our breed over the time, but we can try to keep them as close to pure as possible... and the easiest method to ensure this is by clear identification. Sure we can change directions every time we meet a windmill but, if they're on the map, it sure makes our journey easier!

And ........... we just take your word on this claim?

Silver Is As Good As Gold CD BN HIT (Potomac 2012)

Watch your mouth.... Only registered, purebred Labs can compete at Potomac, and only trained dogs can compete successfully in obedience. Someone loved that Lab enough to train him. No registered, loved Lab with titles and and HIT is a mutt.

The only meaning of "purebred" is a dog whose pedigree is registered with an organization like AKC. So, unless this dog is an ILP'd dog, he is a purebred.

On paper.

With the current AKC policy (register "silver" labs as chocolate and "charcoal" labs as black), even though the LRC does not endorse it, dilute breeders have no choice but register their dogs in this way. It is not fraud when that is the policy for registering that particular variation of color. So until the policy of AKC, the registration organization, is changed to something different, dilute breeders are following the policy and are not committing fraud. If the AKC policy is changed in the future, I agree that from that point forward the dilute black and chocolate puppies produced should be registered as per policy--- or the breeder would be committing fraud.

The Issue of the Silver Labrador

Frances O Smith, DVM, PhD Chair, Labrador Retriever Club, Genetics Committee

Over the past few years a limited number of breeders have advertised and sold dogs they represent to be pure bred Labrador Retrievers with a silver coat color- hence the term “silver labs”. At least some of these “silver labs” have been accepted for registration by the AKC. The rationale for this decision is apparently, that the silver coat color is a shade of chocolate.  Interestingly, the original breeders of “silver” Labradors were also involved in the Weimeraner breed.

Although we cannot conclusively prove that the silver Labrador is a product of cross breeding the Weimeraner to a Labrador, there is good evidence in the scientific literature indicating that the Labrador has never been identified as carrying the dilute
gene dd. The Weimeraner is the only known breed in which the universality of dd is a characteristic. Recognized coat colors for purebred Labradors are black, yellow and chocolate. No shadings of coat color are recognized for black or chocolate Labradors in either the Labrador standard or the current research into genetic coat colors. The shadings recognized in yellow Labrador  Retrievers do not depend on the presence of the dilute gene dd but are modifiers acting on the ee gene. The identified coat color genes in the Labrador include:
    A   B   C   D    E    g   in   s   i
     |      |     |    |                 |
     a     b    c       e              t

The omission of “d” and thus the impossibility of a dd dilute gene resulting from a pure Labrador breeding is certainly persuasive evidence that the silver Labrador is not a purebred.

It is the opinion of the LRC that a silver Labrador is not a purebred Labrador. The pet owning public is being duped into believing that these animals are desirable, purebred, and rare and therefore warrant special notoriety or a premium purchase price.

This just says it can't be proven that they are from Weims and is a play on words.
And this Gregg is an AKC judge?
So from all of the hate I am reading any dog listed as silver in name or grey or gray or charcoal are silver dogs????

Lets see Silver King behind one Kellogg line not going to any silver/ light chocolate known line = Silver???
Grey Plover from Banchory Bolo = Grey???
Grey Tern = Grey
Grey Teal = Grey "
Silver Mosel = Silver
Charcoal XI = Charoal/light black going to ???
Grey Mist from Sandylands =Grey ???
How about Charcoal of Hardy or Grey Feathers Domino or Charcoal Timothy of Coventry (This one does go to the dilute colors of two)
not to mention silver shoes...hum!
I just can't believe all of this hatred! Get a life!

That's not what I am saying that's what the other posters are saying about the name having a meaning.
I don't breed silver mutts BTW.
Wow, more hatred, unreal! You all are doing your very best to tear the AKC apart.

Well there you have it, these dogs aren't purebred according to Dr. Smith of the LRC and therefore a color test for the dilution gene should be all that's needed to deny registration. Simple! Let's hope they get on it. I can't understand why anyone would want anything else.

I am not going to go through all of these posts to point anyone out. There are pages.
One remark about silvers comparing them to African-Americans with Blones hair as mixes really hit a nerve. In response to that comment;
http://news.yahoo.com/origin-mysterious-dark-skinned-blonds-discovered-181239858.html;_ylt=AtoAVKTBFlHFezx0SKhkb1_zWed_;_ylu=X3oDMTRvZGlnZWMxBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDEwMDBwb29sd2lraXVwcmVzdARtaXQDTmV3cyBmb3IgeW91BHBrZwMwODVlYWEzOC1kMDdiLTMyN2UtOGNmZS1iYjkzZDEwOTliZGYEcG9zAzIEc2VjA25ld3NfZm9yX3lvdQR2ZXIDOWZhNTc3NjAtOTU0Yy0xMWUxLTk3ZGYtMDhmMjE4MDA0MzVk;_ylg=X3oDMTJxbmQyYjliBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDOGMyNjY5NWQtNzM4MC0zNGQzLWI2MWYtNTUxODZhNzNlNGRhBHBzdGNhdANzY2llbmNlBHB0A3N0b3J5cGFnZQ--;_ylv=3

Until it is proven they are not a natural part of the gene pool of the Labrador I will keep my mind open. If National Geographic can map the tribe a slave came from I am sure that the dilute gene CAN be mapped.
I do realize that breeding have taken place in the past from dogs that may or may not have been the properly registered sire. We didn't have fencing 40 or 50 years ago.

I doesn't mean I don't have to listen to Judges or anyone else but when it is written in a could be way like the Vet for the LRC that it "could be" and "is" I have mt doubts. An outside sorce saying this gene was introduced would be conclusive.

There's no could-be about it at all. Purebred labradors don't have this gene, period. Who cares where it came from, the dilute gene doesn't belong in the labrador lines.

You just seem to not want to take the word of hundreds if not thousands of breeders world wide who have worked with this breed since it's beginnings and have published historical facts about the breed. They are proof enough, combined with my own decades of experience with the breed, that the dilute gene has NEVER been in the breed as a whole.

An outside source? Ok, did you not read the geneticist for the LRC and her findings? Oh wait she's on their payroll so she must be biased huh? Bull pucky! The silver/dilute breeders just want to keep their head in the sand and believe this is some sort of hate filled conspiracy against them. Talk about those of the flat earth society.

Here is a good article on Silvers/dilutes that I found in my research: http://www.blueknightlabs.com/content/view/70/109/

So if you don't want to accept the word of all these breed experts and would rather regurgitate on the lies that you've been spoon-fed by those before you who only has had $$$ as their main goal of breeding, then I have a bridge to sell you. I know for me, I will take the word of experts who have nothing but the best intentions and breed to preserve and protect the breed as proof any day.