I've FF 4 dogs quite awhile ago. Now I am force fetching five 5 month old pups. One is finally picking up bumper on command from the ground, others aren't even driving for the bumper yet. We've been at it almost 3 weeks. It seems longer than previous times I've FF. What is the average time for most to learn forced fetch? I use Evan Graham's ideas - first teaching a good hold.

The puppy is giving you clear feedback that you need to take some classes to learn how to train a puppy.

Hi! The puppy is far too young. You need to wait that all his teeth are in first. I would suggest that you get the Bill Hillman video that is the best way to start a puppy the correct way.

This means you are shocking 5 5 month old puppies? Does it bother you at all?

Hi!

Please give that person the benefit of the doubt. Dear fetch look at this site where you can get the Bill Hillman DVD. You can see video clips too. There is a lot of things you can do with your puppy while he is growing up before you start the ff process. This needs to be a happy constructive bonding trusting happy time with your puppy. The old methods have changed a lot. http://www.hawkeyemedia.net/

WRONG!! WRONG!! WRONG!! I do not use an electric collar to FF!!!

Many pups run Hunt tests by 6 months and are FF starting at 5 mos. My current pups and I have a fantastic bond, all initial training done with treats and praise, a very happy and obedient group.

I have succesfully FF 2 pups this age in the past and it went very quickly and easily. One is now a diabetic service dog the other with an avid hunter.

Thanks for the Bill Hillman link. I now think I've added pressure (ear pinch) too soon in this case. They all hold well and are now picking up bumper most of the time just with directing head to bumper without pressure. I was giving too much pressure for the age.

Ear pinch is just as big a problem at 5 months as the shock collar--and the puppy is telling you so. There are far better approaches that don't run the risk of damaging your puppy's enthusiasm for training. Puppies can crash and burn and dropout when there is no need for this to happen. Before you continue training, get some consultation with a person who has kept up with new methods.

Education, I agree. I watched the Bill Hillman clips and have decided to just teach the "fetch" in the future as that part has gone very well. I do teach "fetch" and "hold" before I added the "force", I'm going to drop the force part. Pups go to new hunting homes at 6 months, new families can add the "force" later if they want to. My keeper pup will hopefully start HT at 9 mos to a year, I can then add the "force" if even needed. Litter has such great retrieve drive, could almost run HT's on natural retrieve drive and "hold" command without FF.

Don't worry, they're not "ruined". 2 are now doing a very happy walking fetch with bumpers laid in a line. It's a great game to them.

An e collar is not necessary to force fetch and this comment is odd. A collar is not introduced by good trainers until basic obedience is instilled; otherwise collar conditioning is useless.

An e-collar is not a simple shock device (like the Geico commercial dramatizes in the Mayhem the Dog ad). You can set a modern e-collar on sound only, or stimulation as low as a mild tickle. Less discomfort for the pup even than a tight lead would be! And the control over the timing of the correction is a lot more precise and can be done totally off lead. You are more likely to get the pup to associate the correction with the behavior instead of associating it with the handler. It's a fantastic tool for any age dog used correctly.

Excellent. It is always good to listen to the feedback of puppies. They are very honest and genuine.

Five months? Even with a rambunctious pup it seems cruel. Sorry if you don't like this comment but I've ear-pinch-trained several Lab pups and I refuse to ear-pinch at that age--don't even talk about e-collars!

I watch too much TV and train too little I suppose. Mayhem is with Allstate and the shock collar he is wearing is for an invisible fence. It is not the same as the type of collar you describe here. It will give the dog a shock if it approaches the buried wire frequency. I love those commercials though.

It is the same technology, and the Invisible Fence collars have the exact same flexibility in programming. The commercial is hyperbole - nobody should ever have the collar set so strongly that it knocks the dog down.

I also watch too much TV, but I do own and train with an e-collar and I also have Invisible Fence. So I am speaking from personal experience.

I have two dogs that got their first JH legs at 9 months of age with no force training of any kind. They have natural instinct. It's what I strive for.

I'm sure I am over tired but I'd love to use an e-collar on a few folks and those metal ear pinchers...ahhh dog lovers what a great bunch!

"metal ear pinchers" Wherever did you get the idea of metal ear pinchers?

I watched a Corgi owner use one on her dog

Yikes! I like the Bill Hillman way, things will be changing a bit here, thanks all who posted.

How long it takes to FF is dependent primarily on the skill of the trainer and to some extent the personality and mental maturity of the dog. However a skilled trainer knows how to read the dog and apply the correct training at the right time. It is not a cookbook.



I am not sure what the huge rush is?

If you are using EG, you may want to re-read the intro. He doesn't advocate starting on any of the formal fetch work until the obedience is solid. He makes it a point to mention that the pup has a straight, tight sit, knows what heel is, etc.. Most pups are not mature enough at 5 mos to do this. Mine are not ready until at least 8-9 mos and I think the last one I did wasn't really ready for any compulsion training until ~15 mos, but she's doing well now. You really do have to read the dog as others have said.

Compulsion training is the hallmark of a poor trainer.

Hmmm.... would you like to take that up with the top winning field trial trainers. Or schutzhund competitors, or pointing dog specialists.

An e-collar, pinch collar, choke chain collar or flat collar can all be abused.

Look at the dog with the trainer before you decide if he/she is a poor trainer. Then look at what collar they are using.

I'm always astonished when I hear people bragging that they use compulsion. I'd be embarrassed to advertise I was such a weak trainer. That's the best you can do? And you're proud of it? Ugh. The people I admire win world championships and OTCH without compulsion.

Kudos to you Education!
I totally agree.

Compulsion continues to be used so often because it is "easy" and somewhat natural to us as human beings. IT does work.. but often at the expense of the dog's desire and joy in their work. Yes.. there are some dogs... that can tolerate a huge amount of compulsion without it ruining them.. but I think those dogs are far and few between.

As long as the measure of success with a training method is based on the number of ribbons or titles and not on the dog's attitude or joy in their work.. ( don't get more points if your dog is wagging it's tail while heeling than if it is not...) Compulsion is here to stay.

A five month old puppy is too young to be forced - both mentally and physically. Chances are that a 5 month old is teething. Not a good idea to be forcing a sore mouthed pup to be holding anything, as far as I'm concerned. I also think that 5 months is way too young to be forced at all - especially if this is not a field bred dog (I'm assuming here, as this forum is predominantly show breeders). I have seen field bred dogs that could handle force fetch relatively young, but I don't know anyone who force fetches before adult teeth are in, and this includes field trial professional trainers.

Never assume anything on an anonymous forum. There may be a lot of show breeders on here, but there are also a lot of BYB and mutt breeders, too.

You should never force train any dog who is teething or too soft in temperament to do any sort of formal training. Teach the basics first before requiring a reliable "take" and/ or retrieve based upon any sort of pressure. And for those who do not understand what "pressure" involves, ask the experienced trainers. "pressure" is not cruel and dogs learn very well once they understand that they control the pressure, in whatever form it takes, and however it make be applied.

Force (or pressure) is only "necessary" in the eyes of a trainer with limited skills. In fact dogs are so clever that they learn despite their trainer's limited skills. Imagine what they could do if they had a better trainer.....

You have no idea of what someone else means when they refer to "pressure".... It does not have to be a nick from an E collar, or a correction with a chain training collar, so don't be so quick to pass judgment and insult someone who refers to using "pressure" as having limited skills.
And it is futile to have any sort of intelligent, productive discussion on an anonymous forum when people are aggressive in their ignorant opinions. Imagine what one learn if there were an honest exchange of ideas.

You don't know what you're talking about.

my god am i shocked to read about your training methods your collars are forbidden in finland...and why on earth would a puppy need an ear pinch...???
ritva with her happy labs living a happy life and nothing that serious????

Harsh training methods should be banned here too, Ritva. I cringe when I read some of the posts by people trying to justify abuse. It was on Headline News with Jane Velez-Mitchell about what is done to horses to make them step high and have a different gait for competition. It's cruel and inhumane and all for a blue ribbon! Ridiculous and I hope some of these trainers will be held accountable.

That will never happen. It's been going on for many many years.

With an attitude like yours, you're right, it will never happen. Thankfully, Jane Velez Mitchell (and many others) have a different outlook and are a voice for the animals. She just needs to be made aware of what's going on and the world will know. Huge steps are being made in regard to animal welfare. When something looks like abuse, it's reported now, definitely a step in the right direction.

Last night on HLN News with Jane Velez Mitchell she ran a clip of Beagles living their lives as labratory guinea pigs. It showed ones rescued that stepped out of their crates for the first time not knowing what grass was. Anyone interested in helping these poor dogs (there's an estimated 70,000 used for testing in labratories!) can go to beaglefreedomrescue.org
Also, don't buy any products that do animal testing. It should say on the labels. We all can make a difference, even if it's a small one.

Sorry...it's beaglefreedomproject.org

dear, will put this on my face book page, for the beagles, i don´t buy anything animal tested, no chinese products for years and i´ll do anything for suffering animals specially labradors of course and meat dog mafia business is my priority since my retired army husband/military history writer got brainbleeding/vascular dementia as all breeding programme had to be forgotten, my beloved labs are now my husbands therapy labs. best ritva.

Jane Velez-Mitchell is just another Animal Rights Extremist hack. No thanks and no sympathies from me. Anything to do with Animal Rights can all go to HELL! Thank GOD this is still a free country and we have to fight these scum like hell if we want to protect our rights to own and even breed dogs in this country. Will never side with them.

Talk about an extremist. The Beagles and other animals in need have many kind hearted souls helping to rescue them from neglect everyday and it's making a difference. You can go to HELL.

The problem with the reporting on these situations is that they pull at our heart strings (yes, I have a heart and care for animal welfare, which is not the same as Animal Rights). Anytime HSUS gets behind a bill or a rescue or an expose, facts, statistics, etc get twisted, taken out of context and can be conjured up by these groups to not only shock us but also helps them to raise money to help fight this alleged "abuse". They show the same old pictures from raids done years ago or the one or two that they conduct a year in which conditions are truly bad. They do this again, to get more donations. After a while of showing people this "horror" stories, people think horribly about *ALL* industries in which a few isolated extreme conditions of animal abuse may have been found.

There are plenty of good, hard working volunteers who spend countless hours working hands on in shelters and with rescue groups. These people are not our enemy. They are animal welfare advocates. However there are many who do take more of an Animal Rights position. They blame ALL breeders for the dogs that die in the shelter. Trust me, I've debated enough of them to hear the same thing over and over again, "STOP BREEDING!" Their motto is buy one, kill one. Who is extreme here?

It sounds whack to you? Well if you want to continue to own and breed, show or hunt, you need to open your eyes. There are presently TWO federal proposals/bills being considered that will severely limit your ability to breed dogs. Don't think you're a large enough breeder? Or think, great finally something will be done to shut down commercial kennels because they are all bad? We only see the bad ones and figure they are all like this. Is this fair? NO. So why paint the few bad apples with same brush? Because the Radical Animal Rights groups show us all the same photos over and over again, turns the public against breeders saying we're all bad. They draw up and get legislation passed little by little that is aimed at achieving their ultimate goals-ending all use and ownership of animals. You can say I'm whack for taking such a stand, but I've been reading and learning about these extremists. And if you care to maintain your rights to own and use animals, then you'd better pull your head of that place where the sun ain't shining. Siding with the Animal Rights groups will put us in the same boat as those who found themselves in at Crufts this year. All under the claim of protecting health and welfare of the show dogs. They went along with this because they wanted to show they were caring breeders, especially with that AR propaganda video, "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" fresh in the public's mind. This video painted a picture that all purebred dogs were unhealthy and disease riddled. Breeders thought they were doing the right thing by allowing the health checks, little did they know they'd be done by crooked vets, horse vets and non-specialists. These breeders had specialists clear their dogs after the show, but to the public, this just cemented the notion that purebreds are unhealthy. This is what happens when you become compliant. Breeders must unite and fight these proposals.

Here's an interesting article about how these groups lie to their followers and to the public. This is how they are presenting this new proposal in APHIS at the moment: http://cynoanarchist.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/aspca-lies-about-the-proposed-aphis-rule-change/

Please educate yourself.

If these groups clean out comercial kennels, puppy mills, abuse, neglect, show dogs who spend their lives on the road with handlers, lab animals, etc. then they are helping. Just as extreme (as some of these groups can be) there are the jerk breeders who make all breeders look bad. That's not the fault of these groups. How can you call a "commercial" kennel good? Since when is huge numbers of dogs producing hundreds of offspring year after year good?? When what should be a hobby and fun for the dogs turns into dollar signs for breeders and dog owners let the HSUS take over as far as I'm concerned. It needs to be addressed and if you don't like the way animal activists handle it take your issues to the people who screwed it up for the "good" breeders to begin with. We don't see the neglect every day like they do, the dogs sitting in kill shelters hoping to be adopted, farm animal cruely, backyard butchers, etc. hell, look what some hunt tests enthusiasts or show people will do for a blue ribbon. It just doesn't end so unless reminders are out there with pictures (recent or seen before) it continues. I think it's good that these people are reminded to take care of their animals, treat them kindly and let them live the way they were meant to because it's not going unnoticed.

Good for you!!!! There are commercial breeders who show too. The question is not whether their dogs have "certifications" and handlers, the question is the quality of the lives of the dogs they produce and the lack of self restraint they use in selling their puppies for dollars to anyone willing to pay the toll to support their need for a ribbon and money.

Your head is definitely higher up in that spot than I thought. Or maybe you're just an Animal Rights Terrorist yourself. HOW DARE you criticize and call other breeders these derogatory names when you have not personally met them. The commercial breeders have taken great strides to "clean up" their industry. They call themselves "Professional Breeders". They hold conferences and learn how to best care for their animals and yes, some are even beginning to do health testing. Have personally visited these kennels? Have you seen the conditions that they keep their dogs? Have you talk with them and found out just how much they do care for their dogs? NO, of course not it's much easier for you to sit back in your jealous thrown and throw rocks at people you don't know. Oh you've seen pictures? How about the fact that many times these pictures are the same ones we've seen over and over again to makes us cry, taken from rescues in isolation rooms of animals just coming in that way or of kennels/litter boxes that had yet to be clean that morning. Can you manufactured or twisted? Have you talked to these people who have had their lives ruined because someone thought they were taking care of the animals the way that person would have taken care of theirs?

And so now you're saying that sending a dog with a handler on the road is animal abuse too? Really? You're more of an extremist that I first thought.

You're also quite judgmental and harsh on people you think are ruining it for you as a breeder. What about the demand for purebred puppies? People shouldn't have a choice in America any more? Shut down all the Pet Stores? Because *you* and your Animal Rights friends don't think dogs should be raised in *clean* commercial kennels? Guess again, these terrorist at PETA, HSUS and ASPCA want you to side with them, but they say *ALL* breeders are the same. They make no distinction and use your derogatory names to include *ALL* breeders regardless of quality or size. To end all breeding is their goal. If this is what you want and you still want to believe they do good work, yes, your head is much higher up there in that dark spot then I thought.

Those poor dying dogs in the shelter? Interesting little fact for you. Shelters import roughly 500,000 dogs from *foreign* countries to fill the demand for "shelter" dogs. This is according to the CDC. So tell me if we have so many sad and dying dogs, why do we import so many every year? Shouldn't we take care of our own first? Not only importing these dogs, but siding with the AR extremists who pass strict laws against breeding in some states, yet have shelters who do not have enough pets to sale, oh yes, I said sale because shelter pets have become a big business too. They import these pets from other states too. Some of these rescuers have been caught with dogs in horrible conditions too. Maybe we should ban rescues too?

Animal abuse is animal abuse. I am not for this but feel we have plenty of laws to punish those who harm animals. The problem is these AR groups want to go even further and take away our rights to own and breed dogs. They want us all stop using animals for food, milk, eggs, etc. Is this what you want? If you do, you keep throwing out your hate filled, jealous rants about those unscrupulous breeders who ruin it for you good breeder. Just because people don't breed *your* way doesn't mean they are abusing their animals. Many of these breeders are good honest families running a business in accordance to the laws and do take care of their dogs. You have no right to judge these people if you have not personally seen their facilities. If you do see substandard breeders, perhaps, you could turn them and they will be punished. But if you're just sitting back on your high horse painting them all with the same broad brush, you truly are blind to what's really going. The AR groups have brainwashed you well.

For those breeders who do care about maintaining your rights to breed, we must unite and stop throwing stones. We have years and years of being in dogs to just give it up to these Radical Animal Rights Whack jobs. Please, please educate yourselves about this movement and actively oppose new legislation that is backed by HSUS, PETA or ASPCA. We have too much at stake.

For those who are not aware of The HSUS (Humane Society of the United States). They are not an umbrella group for your local shelters. They do not operate any hands on pet shelters. They give less than 1% of their annual budget to actual hands on shelters. The majority of their budget goes to salaries and pensions. Other large amounts go to pay lobbyist who are actively trying to pass laws against farmers, breeders and agribusiness. They do conduct a few raids a year, many are deemed illegal seizures after the fact. They destroy lives. They take these "seizures" and dump them on local shelters who are often severely overburdened financially and often have to kill other pets to make room. The purebred dogs are often sold to make up some of the money. They took in donations to help Michael Vicks dogs, yet fought in court to have them killed. Thankfully the court ordered them to go to rescues and not a dime of those funds they raised went to those rescue groups. And yet, because of a large donation, HSUS says that Vicks would make a great pet owner. I could go on and on. For more information about HSUS please visit www.humanewatch.org. If you want to help animals, please donate/volunteer with your local no-kill shelter.

To watch an entertaining video about PETA, as presented by Penn and Teller, go to this link. It would be funnier if it weren't true. These Animal Rights Extremists are truly Whack! http://youtu.be/inFtOMx8nDU

And you're a blow hard with tunnel vision. Honestly, I read about two sentences of your rant, saw where it was headed and decided not to waste my time. It appears all you have to lose is $$$$ and you're worried more about that than your rights as a pet owner.

Thank you for just proving my point as to where your head is firmly planted. You *assume* I am the type of breeder who breeds for money. So laughable considering that I only have two breedable bitches. I just don't feel it is my business to tell others how to breed or conduct their business as long as they are operating under existing regulations. You seem to *assume* that all breeders are bad except you and a few of your friends that breed a certain way.

You don't want to read what I have to say, fine. I don't care, but hopefully others will and understand what is going on when you side with the Animal Rights Extremists, falling for their heartwrenching proganda videos aimed at bringing in more donations and turning the public against ALL breeders. It seems people are more proud of their shelter dogs than owning a purebred. Here's an excellent article that explains it way better than I can about how the public, and some breeders, have been brainwashed by the Animal Rights Extremists: http://dogknobit.com/2012/03/22/guilt-its-not-just-for-jews-and-catholics-anymore/

You honestly think, knowing their agenda, that they won't bother you because some how you think you are better than the other breeders? When they come for the likes of your kind, there won't be any other breeders left to come to your defense and you along with all the breeders who love and care for their dogs will have gone by the way side. You do know what happens when you *assume*, judge and paint everyone with the same brush? You have firmly planted your head straight up in that place where the sun don't shine. I don't have tunnel vision. I see the big picture. I see what can happen if we all don't stand together as breeders. But if you think I have tunnel vision, I'll just say I'd rather have tunnel vision than anal vision like you.

Have a nice day

"You do know what happens when you *assume*, judge and paint everyone with the same brush? You have firmly planted your head straight up in that place where the sun don't shine."


Practice what you preach, I'm not a breeder, even though your speeches *assume* that I am. You're so wrapped up in throwing your opinions out there and hoping they stick it's obvious to me where your head is planted.

Oh my bad, I misread your rant when you were insulting commercial kennels and calling them by the derogatory hate term. I thought you said "us" good breeders. Sadly some breeders do want to keep that same attitude, so those comments can apply to anyone who feels they need to tell others how to breed.

But with that said, my head is firmly planted on my shoulders and I can see what the Animal Rights Extremists are up to. You speak like you are one of them. I'm surprised you are even on here. Next you'll be telling everyone to stop breeding. Well you kind of already did. Come on here, spew your hatred for people who breed dogs for money. You put down show dogs and field trainers. I'm surprised that more breeders aren't kicking the crap out of for your derogatory statements about them. WE WILL NOT BE SHAMED BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I may not necessarily agree with how others breed, but that is not up to me or anyone else to tell people how they can earn money. Last I checked this is the USA. What is wrong with making money? The government actually encourage breeding for Pet Stores back in the Great Depression as a way to make money. So now you and your Extremist Radicals want to ram your agenda down our throats, I think not.

Breeders are waking up to your extremists agendas. We will not stand for Animal Rights. They have none. They have to right to be treated kindly, but they are not the same rights as humans. WE have the right to own and breed dogs. My opinions are shared by many who fight these ridiculous bills. I'm glad to see that some states are even banning the HSUS in Agriculture law making decisions. The public is even waking up to the hijacked/whacked out Animal Rights movement. You should really watch that Penn and Teller video. It's funny, but sadly shows how truly crazy those Extremists really are.

You don't have anything productive to add to this forum as you are not a breeder and you come on here to insult those who do show, use handlers and/or field train, why don't you just go away and work on pulling your head out of your a$$. Or not, just stay here and let me keep rattling your cage.

You're an ass. I own Labradors, have shown in conformation and obedience in the past. Met some very nice people, but unfortunately, many like you standing ringside. It wasn't something I wanted for me or my dogs. Since when is reading or commenting on this forum limited to just breeders??? And the remark you made about people being more proud of their shelter dogs than a purebred Labrador. You're sickening. I'm not going anywhere soon, if you *assume* I'll back down to some jerk who thinks she's made a huge contribution to the world because she calls herself a breeder, think again.

For what it's worth ( and I know that there is at least one nut job who'll crucify me for saying this) I agree with What the Wack Job.

AND I wholeheartly AGREE with Oh Boy. Can we go back to they day when people minded thier own f*ing business, and did not tell me how to live my life?

Same attitude as Oh Boy. These folks usually end up hanging themselves when given enough rope.

Hatfields and McCoys!

Whatever! Maybe a smartass, but you're a dumbass. You just proved that it is YOU who has anal, er I mean, tunnel vision. "Many" like me? Do you know me personally? Do you know how I keep my dogs *personally*? You see a few, or in your words "many", who keep dogs differently and has a different view on breeding dogs than *YOU* have, so because of these view you believe almost everyone who breeds dogs does it for the money and keeps their dogs in substandard conditions and needs extreme terrorist groups like HSUS to clean them out? You truly are narrow minded and sick. This is the US, we have such a diverse culture in this country with a WIDE variety of beliefs and values. Not everyone believes a dog should sleep on it's owner's bed. Not everyone believes that dogs need to run free for hours on end every day. Not everyone believes that you should breed ONE way or no way. But if certain types of breeders maintain your ideas, which are truly spawned by the Animal Rights rhetoric, we will lose our rights. We all need to open our minds and accept other's way of doing things. It's not "your way or the highway".

I am not ashamed to call myself a breeder. I love what I do. I enjoy every aspect of being a breeder(except losing newborn puppies) from breeding, to whelping, to showing and finishing titles on my dogs. I love meeting new people who will be caring for the few puppies I do produce annually. To see how much these dogs enrich these families lives is very rewarding. I've made some life long friends in the breed and show world as well as the puppy buyers. I've had many repeat puppy buyers over the years. Again, you *assume*, that I get some kind of a high out of calling myself a breeder and making great contributions to the breed. You make it seem like being a breeder is a dirty word. I just can't let you do that to me and others who take great pride in what they do.

The article, which you apparently failed to read, talks about people like you. A dog is a dog to me. I love them all the same, but now a days, it does seem that owning a purebred dog is seen as a bad thing. I meet many more people who proudly proclaim their dog is a rescue. Good for them. And yet when you say you breed dogs, you hear crickets. No, I won't feel guilty for what I do. I won't let you or any other Animal Rights terrorist do this to me. I can assure you I am quite humble by what I've accomplished in dogs, but I do also have a life outside of dogs too. Like many breeders, we have families, have children or have raised children, who have become contributing members to our society. However they are not raised to be so narrow minded and hate people that they've never met or *assume* that because they have a certain type of job, business or hobby, that they are automatically bad people.

Need some Vaseline?

LOL Someone's been watching the History channel lately. I hear that's a good series.

Sick puppy.

Yes you are.

I have to laugh, you continue to call me an animal activist, because your agenda is to hope and pray these organizations don't put you out of business and your relentless rants are to try and convince folks (who I'm sure already have their own opinions and could care less about yours) that we better all unite for the betterment of the breed. Talk about extreme, you sound as crazy as the groups you're bashing. I'm a long time Labrador owner and appreciate all purebred breeds and mixed. They all deserve only the best. I don't endorse or condone any of the groups you are accusing me of belonging to. You are one of those maniacs who jump on the "Oh, no another animal activists" bandwagon because someone helps another animal in need. Jane Velez Mitchell has helped by showing abuse all around the world. I'm all for it. If she's involved with groups who threaten your livelihood and subsistence I could care less. She has as much of a right to broadcast for these organizations as you do to bash them.

I said your attitudes and opinions are that of the Animal Rights groups. You openly state that you think they do good work. If it talks like a duck and walks like a duck... That's how they think, that's the way they want us all to think. Changing public opinion to turn them against breeders has been working well for them. Breeders turning against other breeders. What easier way to start taking them out, one by one? Divide and conquer. Uniting breeders to fight these groups has nothing to do with bettering the breed. It must be done to protect our rights.

JVM is a known AR activist. She supports the groups and gives them more voice. The problem I have with these groups is they don't report honest facts. They are very dishonest. The tactics they use and the propaganda they use to push their point across has little to do with the truth. If you would only pull you head out of that place where the sun don't shine to actually open you mind and learn about these groups, then you might see differently. But you prefer to stay in the dark. Trust me, I used to have strong opinions about those who didn't breed like me. I used to scapegoat the other breeders as ruining it for breeders like me. But then I had an epiphany and learned all I could about this movement and their ultimate goals. You can love animals, you can help animals, but forcing your views on other people by passing restrictive laws, conducting ILLEGAL kennel seizures and ruining the lives of good people in the process is just wrong. The HSUS uses very deceptive tactics all to bring in more donations, that does nothing to help your local shelters yet gives them more money to take away our rights. But then again as a journalist, honesty in reporting doesn't matter anymore.

Lastly, it's not about taking away just my rights to a "livelihood and subsistence" as I don't make money off my dogs. My dogs bring much enjoyment to my life, but definitely do not provide me with money in which to live off of. However, other breeders do that and that is *THEIR* right. It has to do with preserving our rights to OWN (yes you own dogs, right?), breed, hunt, train (using tools that work with your methods), etc. It's about having the freedom of choice.

Thank you oh boy, am learning alot. I've reading alot bout these issues lately. Your riight on.

All I have to say to you is good luck. You've got a long way to go with your attitude and know-it-all, condescending opinions before anyone is going to feel sorry for your cause. We may need people going to bat for the "good breeders", but I doubt your approach will get you anywhere.

LOL Goes to show what you know. I don't know it all, but I'm learning. I'm learning from other breeders, not only in Labradors, who have years of experience successfully fighting anti-dog breeding legislation. My approach is working to get the word out and get other breeders to realize that even though they do not necessarily agree with how others choose to breed or keep their dogs. It's about opening our minds and look past what we've been told by the AR groups. How we've been programmed, even by other breeders, to put down those who think differently about their dogs than we do. More and more breeders are coming aboard to fight for their rights. Did you know that some of the commercial breeders have a name for the hobby breeders? It's every bit as derogatory as those some of use to describe them. People are listening and I don't want them to feel sorry. I want them to get angry. I want them to realize that we can't keep going on dividing ourselves and think we're safe from the AR agenda.

Please define for me what a "good" breeder is? Can they breed enough dogs when combined to keep up with demand for millions of purebred dogs a year in this country? Show me studies that prove dogs sold in pet stores are any unhealthier than those acquired through other venues. Show me facts that they end up in shelters in large numbers? Would you rather shut down all commercial kennels that are regulated and inspected in lieu of opening the flood gates for foreign bred puppies that have no regulations and often bring in more disease?

Nope sorry will never buy into their propaganda and hope others continue to see the light.

So what is the derogatory name the commercial breeders have for us?

It is some commercial breeders, not all. I will not repeat it, just as I won't use the term that some breeders use to describe them. When we use these terms, it gives others permission to continue using them in hateful and divisive ways. Since they really don't have true meaning and are used indiscriminately to describe breeders regardless of quality or size, I refuse to validate them by continuing to use them. The worst one was created by the AR groups, meant to conjure up substandard conditions at the time. They now use it to refer to ALL breeders. Language is a powerful tool, both good and bad.

I've never paid much attention to AR groups or their cause. I'm concerned about animal welfare as all of us should be, but after listening to your raves about AR groups, I'm turned off by breeders if they are all like you. I don't like you trying to tell me what to do (like you claim the AR groups do.) Oh, I'm angry all right, that people like you are trying to run the show and preach to the choir that WE better do what you say or God help America and all the dog breeders. You're a radical in my opinion. Sounds to me like it takes one to know one, you're no better than the groups you're condemning, you're doing the same exact thing from a different platform. SHUT UP, would be the best thing you could do for your cause.

You are too much. Don't pay much attention to the AR groups? Well that's pretty obvious if you think the HSUS is doing a good job. They are just as radical as PETA. I'm sure you've heard that PETA kills animals (97% of the ones they take in www.petakillsanimal.com). Where are the animal welfare-ists, on this one? There is a huge difference between Animal Rights vs. Animal Welfare. The AW's are those working with shelters and rescues. They are focused at the task at hand and that is helping find homes for dogs or rehabilitating abused animals, etc. Animal Rights spew garbage and take the same line against certain breeders, trainers, industries that you do. The problem is they don't stop there, they include all animal users regardless of their standards. Funny you say you never follow these groups, yet spew that same crap they do. Again, walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

You are getting turned off by breeders? Oops, too late, you've already taken a stance that you don't like most breeders. You put them down and call them names without ever meeting the vast majority of them in person nor get to see how they care for their animals. But like those truly narrow-minded, head up the a$$, bigots, you can scapegoat me if you please. I say your attitude against breeders was quite evident in your first few posts.

Shut up? NEVER! But keep it up and people will see right through your posts and who you are claiming to be.

And you use the same phrase as the "wack job". What's your point?

If you're as accurate about PETA and HSUS as you are at putting words in someone's mouth then you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Don't put words in MY mouth! If you have nothing better to do than make up stories as you go along I doubt you'll get far with the AR groups. Plain and simple, they're smarter. If dealing with people like you is what they're up against, it's no wonder they are making progress!

Unbelievable, just how long has your head been up your a$$? I thought everyone knew about these groups. Oh my bad again, just those who have joined the fight against them have *educated* themselves about what these groups are all about. No need to make up stories. Put words in your mouth? Your posts speak for themselves. You really don't get out much or research much, do you? I do. I know what's going on. I don't need to make up stories, there are plenty of real stories out there.

I also didn't say the AR extremists are making progress, at least not in this country. Agriculture and breeders are fighting back. You may not want to hear it, but we will win this fight. More and more breeders are banning together. They are not making as much progress as they once were. People are becoming aware of their agendas and threats. The laws they propose are getting killed in most areas where the opposition is strong.

The problem is not necessarily being smarter but having more money. You know as in money talks, common sense walks. After years of airing heart wrenching commercials showing the same "abused" and "abandoned" animals and singing sad songs, these groups have amassed millions of dollars annually. They have paid lobbyist to push through anti-animal legislation. This is what we've been up against for years. I am glad to see groups fighting back now. It just got to the breaking point.

I just made my donation. Hopefully, one of the dogs scheduled to be put down today will be adopted. Some scumbag put a number 4 on her and a number 6 on her kennel mate. They're branded like cattle in the order they will be euthanized.