I have made a decision to heart echo all of my girls always and if they don't pass, remove them from my breeding program. So far I've beem lucky, all have been clear. At some of the clinics, the cost difference between auscultation and echo is $80 to $120 maximum.

I feel the financial difference is miniscule. From speaking to cardiologist, they claimed that about 20% of the time, a murmur from TVD is not heard.

I spoke to a few breeders at each clinic I attended and I found too many are going the easier, cheaper road which is auscultation and for the financial reason. Some had it done at the clinics, other had it done at their GP vet office while the particular dog was there for an examination or vaccination.

I am firm in my decision and I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to do but with the cost difference being small, why not pay the difference for more peace of mind?

When looking for a stud dog for my girls, I'm looking for all the same clearances as tools. Recently, I'm finding occasionally the same with males, way too many with just auscultations or no heart clearance at all. It's not found on websites or OFA anyway and I shouldn't have to contact the breeder to ask if their recent Championships were post wouldn't you think the clearances would be too?

What do ~you~ do and can you explain why? Is it financial or your beliefs? I hear breeders fussing over EIC but not over TVD. I personally feel TVD is much more important to watch out for although there is no complete test yet. I'm content with pedigree research and echo dopplers for now.

I'm not looking for an arguement. PLEASE I will state again, I'm not looking to argue at all. I would like to see just a discussion about the difference between the 2 types of cardiac testing in each of our breeding programs and why some of us are so far apart. TIA.

I refuse to do a simple ascultation because my cardiologist explained how TVD can go undetected. The murmur can be intermittent and/or the flap can stay open or closed at times and no murmur is heard. That was enough for me. I will only do echo. You can actually watch the valve work. To each his own.

I think it is a bit hasty to say the least to judge a dog or breeder based on your own perspective. In other words, you made a decision based on what is important to you. Perhaps there are other reasons why a breeder would choose one method over another. To break it down to cost might be shortsighted on your part.

There are several useful tools in choosing how to direct your breeding program. A proven stud who has sired a number of litters has street cred. Younger studs might be more apt to need to prove.

The dogs that have produced the most TVD in recent years are echo cleared. The test is fine to detect if a dog is affected or not but does nothing to show if a dog will produce it. Studying pedigrees is more important.

I have had a tvd dog show up at 8 months (the murmur). That was many many years ago. I did an echo on the litter mate that stayed and her kids out of the first litter. After that, just did the boys that might be used at stud.

I think that echo is the way to go, but I don't test all of the girls, only if I heard afterward that the outside stud had produced tvd.

I like to do some testing, but really, the testing is not as important as knowing that it is in the line you might be bringing in.

I don't believe all the EIC testing is valuable, but I do wish they would find better ways to test for ED, HD, and of course TVD.

Some breeders do the right thing, testing their dogs over 12 mo.'s and above,discovering their beautiful dog has TVD. They pull that dog from their show kennel. If mild, they place him or her in a pet home. If severe some sadly need to be PTS. At least those breeders eliminate those dogs from their breeding program but what about their parents, grandparents and siblings? Do they continue all of those that pass but are very closely related to the affected dog? Some echo under 12 mo.'s, at 6 mo.'s which is enitrely too early but at least they're doing something. That's not a real clearance according to OFA, not even a prelim as there are no prelims.

I took my boys to our cardiologist, and his opinion was that a cardiologist auscultation was sufficient, IF the pedigree was not suspect, and IF he was not a popular stud apt to sire MANY litters. This is what the cardiologist told me.

In my part of the country, we don't have a cardiologist on staff. Up until a few years ago, a cardiologist was brought up for a health clinic and was only able to provide an auscultation. Just recently, my local club started paying to have a color doppler shipped up with the cardiologist. Many of us took advantage of this opportunity, as our only other option was to try and get one done when we traveled out of state. If I remember, I was charged $250 for the last color doppler I had done.

So, I guess my point is, sometimes people do the best they can with what they have. Personally, I ended up auscultating my dogs annually until the doppler became available. I thought that was what the proper protocol was for an auscultation, so I just kept on. Maybe it's really not a bad idea do them annually in absence of a color doppler, I don't know. Of course, the color doppler is still my preference.

MY vets don't have a board certified cardiologist on staff here on the West Coast either, does anyone? We have to look for echo clinics at shows, or make an appointment at the cardiologists office, which is often not very near where we live. It is expensive, and we do have to travel, but I am committed to all of the dogs in my breeding program having had an echo, this, of course, includes the bitches.

My boy passed his auscultation by the head of Cornell's Cardiac Department....no murmur heard....got his OFA clearance. I made my echo appointment for two weeks later......knew that an echo is the true way to go. He failed his echo....diagnosis mild TVD with a note saying "most likely will not effect his quality of life" !! This broke my heart.....he was neutered the following week.

From the mouth of the cardiologist who did my boy's echo. . .
A few years ago, he was invited to do echos at a specialty. Many leaky valves showed up and breeders were devastated and angry. They were up in arms because these dogs had had their hearts checked out by auscultation as normal. The cardiologist was not invited back.

Well that is just short sighted and ignorant.

Well, the discussion is far from solved.

I don't think it is a question of whether the cardiologist recommends it or not. I think it boils down to why you are doing any heart tests in the first place. If you are doing it just to check off one more clearance, then do the auscultation and know that some breeders will not recognize that as a valid checkpoint.

But if you are doing it so that you know what is really going on in your dog's heart... So you can tell potential brood bitches or stud dog owners that your dog's heart is healthy...So you can rest easier when puppies from your dog are produced...then, by all means, do the echo. It is still the only way to know for sure whether your dog has a healthy heart or not. Auscultation alone cannot do that.

I know that even a dog with a healthy heart can produce TVD, but aren't you lessening the odds just a bit when you absolutely know that your dog is healthy? And given that so many of you call breeding a "craps shoot", isn't lessening the odds in your favor what it is all about?

Every case I know of of TVD has been from echo'ed parents, so I do not think it lessens the odds just because the dog has an echo clearance. What lessens the odds is knowing what they or their close relatives have produced. That being said, I still think an echo is better than auscultation to at least know what you have in front of you, though auscultation is better than nothing at all.

Kudos to "Just not True"- Finally a voice of reason from I'm guessing a seasoned experienced breeder who has been through multiple generations of his/her own dogs as well as being involved in some avenue of this dog hobby for more than a few years. Thank you!!

So can TVD be passed on by one parent or does it take 2 copies to produce it in a litter of pups ?

Exactly what I was going to say. A false sense of security that one gets with an echo clear dog. One regional lab club held an echo clinic last year and ALL of the dogs passed. Now, do you really believe that none of these dogs carry the gene that will produce TVD? It is just a tool and until the genetic marker is found, I, too, will stick with auscultation unless my intuition tells me otherwise.

HOW ABOUT LOOKING AT THIS FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE.

Try using all the same logic presented here, but substitute hip dysplasia (HD) for TVD.

You have a Board Certified Orthopedist palpate your dog’s hips and watch him move. The vet said he felt and saw no problem with the hips and says so in writing on the report. So you send the application to the OFA and he gets a passing certificate.
The Ortho only recommends doing x-rays if he feels or sees something irregular that needs further evaluation.

Several dogs are cleared by palpation, but when they are x-rayed, it shows the dogs have hip dysplasia.

Two dogs with passing hips, even Excellent rated hips on both parents, often produce hip dysplasia. Dysplastic dogs bred together can also produce normal hips. BUT, which breeding would you rather do? Which has the best odds for NOT producing an unhealthy dog? Which breeding would you prefer to buy a dog from for your breeding program or for your beloved pet?

After all the years and all the research and $$ spent studying HD, they still can’t come up with a simple mode of inheritance or a simple test. The best we can do is X-rays for HD and breed only from certified clear parents.

Doesn’t the same goes for TVD? The BEST screening we can do right now is an Echo cardiogram. Some clears will produce TVD affected dogs. Some affected dogs will produce clears. BUT, which breeding would you rather do? Which has the best odds for NOT producing an unhealthy dog? Which breeding would you prefer to buy a dog from for your breeding program or for your beloved pet?

I WOULD NO FURTHER ACCEPT A VET LISTENING TO THE HEART WITH A STETHOSCOPE, THAN I WOULD ACCEPT A VET SAYING HE FELT THE DOG’S HIPS, WATCHED HIM MOVE AND CERTIFIED HIM FREE OF HIP DYSPLASIA.

I also would not eliminate breeding to a certified clear dog who produced an OCCASIONAL HD offspring, than I would eliminate breeding to a ECHO certified clear dog who produced an OCCASIONAL TVD offspring.

The people you need to convince about the importance of an echo are the cardiologists who can't agree even if you think your way is the only way. And while you are at it, try convincing OFA to recommend your approach.

Laura Deddering said it well. She is spot on with her approach. Love that reasoning!

When Winterglen said we do not have a cardiologist in our area I'd like to explain that we are in Alaska, so travel out of state to a cardiologist is very expensive. I believe we have had only 1 or 2 clinics where echo was available. With that explanation, I have not had my 3 bitches cleared by echo, only by auscultation. I am on my 6th generation and have not had any reports of TVD or other cardiac problems in the dogs I have bred. I do breed to males that have been cleared by echo. It's not that I don't believe in clearing by echo, it just wasn't available at the time of my last breeding. I'm sure that there may be others in a similar situation, that just have to do the best they can.
Sally Berry, Northfield Labs, Fairbanks, AK.

I wish there was a *like* button for what Laura Dedering wrote!

I would much rather use dogs (bitches and dogs) in my breeding program that I knew had healthy hearts, (via echo's), than dogs (again, bitches and dogs) that may have passed an auscultation that missed TVD (or other disorder of the heart). It may not guarantee I won't produce TVD affected puppies, but at least I know that I am not mistakenly breeding an affected adult. For now, it's the best I can do.

testing is a wonderful tool, but that is pretty much what it is-- tools to assist us on our long journey to produce sound, healthy labradors, without loosing "type" and temperament.

What about bloodlines strong in longivity --vertically and horizontally

that means a lot to me.

So only 10-20% don't pass an echo? That means that 80-90% DO PASS!!! Quit looking for needles in the haystack and rely on what dogs are producing as much as you do these clearances!! All of this is a personal choice and if a dog doesn't have the clearances you want.. MOVE ON!! Why does this have to be hashed & re-hashed over & over like a bad record on the forum?

Here is the list of board certified ACVIM cardiologists in North Carlina.

http://www.acvim.org/websites/acvim/index.php?p=228

It is not my approach, but the approach of a great many breeders and cardiologists. The numbers of 10 to 20% failing an echo are on those labs who PASS their auscultation! In any event, these numbers sure don't compare to a needle in a haystack. I thought this forum was open to people who could politely voice their experiences and opinions. No need to shout. The people who read your MOVE ON!! scream are getting a great picture of you. There are too many so-called breeders out the who misrepresent their dog's health and clearances...having the facts helps to avoid some devasting consequences.

I like the way you replied and agree with you. Thanks for a normal, non-yelling post.

As far as misrepresentation, I've found a few times over the years that those who don't want to discuss health or certain clearances in the breed usually have something to hide, right in their own kennel.

Folks scream on this forum because they're tired of
hearing the same stuff over & over & over... without anything new to be added. It's like a broken record and besides opinions there are an awful lot of judgments being made, and your post just really provided proof of that.

And note, I think the post is a wonderful tool and am thankful to Jill, Michael & whoever else is willing to monitor this thing and for taking the time do so.