after reading the recent thread on the overbites I started to wonder....

I am a newbie in a sense (only 10 years) and have only done a few breedings.

Wondering how others would handle a near perfect litter with the unexpected genetic issue like the recessive overbite.

Do you sell the puppy (or puppies) for the normal price?
Do you discount ?
Do you give away?

How many feel that if the pups are near perfect with one fault that is not deadly, is the pup worth less as a pet?

How would you explain this to a buyer and is it worth mentioning at 5 weeks if there is still the chance it will correct itself?

thanks,

An overbite isn't going to make the puppy any less a companion pet but I do sell the occasional one for less......for instance if puppies are $2,000, he would be $1,500.

First of all there is no such as a perfect puppy. Perfection is only what we strive to achieve, but since the perfect dog has not yet been produced, we keep striving.

Second of not every dog should be bred if you are trying to produce the best possible dog. Just because they aren't breeding quality, for a variety of reason, doesn't make that puppy any less valuable as a pet. Most minor flaws that would disqualify a pup from our breeding program has absolutely nothing to do with how it affects the puppy as pet.

I've placed dogs that were sound, although OFA determined they were dysplastic. I do charge a fee for these dogs that are not going to be in my program. I do not ever believe in giving away a dog to a complete stranger. People value animals more if they paid something for them. Even when I place a retired brood bitch, I still charge. But what I do charge mainly covers the bitch being spayed and recovery time before she goes to a new home.

So just because a dog is not fit for our breeding program, doesn't mean it won't make a terrific pet for someone. JMHO

this is hypothetical so obviously we know there are no perfect puppies but but an overbite can be an obvious flaw.

how can you sell a puppy for the same as your other pet puppies if you can not guarantee it will fix itself or not cause future issues that need constant care?

I could not honestly tell a buyer, its no big deal....happens all the time...

If the "fault" does nothing in any way to prohibit the dog from leading a normal life then why should they be priced less? Do you price a puppy with a mismark for less? Do you price a puppy with long coat less? What about a kinked tail, over/under bite- I think you haven't been in this long enough to realize that what we as breeders see as flaws are looked as endearing traits by the families getting them and only you have the capability in price to devalue their worth. If the homes you are selling to are giving you grief, then perhaps you should find another prospective home.

If there are issues that may not resolve themselves, I usually explain to the new owners that I would be willing to reimburse them for vet care after consulting with me on the issue.

In my last litter I had one with an overbite, not hardly noticeable. As this was never in my litters over the past 20 years I figured it was introduced through new blood from sire. I kept the pup until 14 weeks and bite was perfect scissor. Just a growth rate issue. Sold him at my pet price $US 1000.00. We did discuss possibility of bite changes.

That aside, I find when you charge a mighty hefty sum for pet pups, families do expect "perfection".....to pet families this is no white,correct bite,both testicles,no inverted vulvas, etc......basically a dog without major faults,and I believe they should get it when they are spending a small fortune for something they will neuter/spay.

I would run the pup on or give family option of deposit back and find it a new family. Don't know what you charge for pups, but one with a major fault should not bring a premium price in my opinion.

No puppies are perfect.

I do not alter the price for puppies over faults that might keep them out of the show ring. They are going to pet homes because they won't work out for the show ring.

Now, if I ever have a puppy who is deformed in some way that wouldn't hinder a long and happy life. (Example: 3 legs) Then I would offer some sort of price reduction.

I know some breeders who freaked out when long haired puppies were born in their litter and they gave them away for free. I would not have done that. The long haired puppies in that litter had the same planning, care, etc put into them as the short haired puppies did. Their parents had the same health clearances, same titles, etc.

I personally do not think a dog with an overbite is defective, any more than I think a person with crooked teeth is defective. When you start reducing the price for something as trivial as an overbite, you are telling the buyer the dog is defective. That is hugely negative and sends a really bad message to the buyer.

I agree, I had one pup with a parrot mouth. The same love, care, and expense went into that pup as the one I kept for showing. Our upper end in our area is about $1000 and that's what I got for the pup. They asked for a discount, but I said No. He's been a great pet and I've had him back for boarding. He's a great dog. Just not show quality. Big deal. He eats and chews just the same as my other dogs.

I would run the pup on or give family option of deposit back and find it a new family. Don't know what you charge for pups, but one with a major fault should not bring a premium price in my opinion.

Perfectly stated! Thank you!

Are you serious??? How can you sell a puppy with 3 legs or a mayor deformity??? I don't think that is ethical.

I do not believe in giving puppies away, but if this would happen to me, I would only ask for a small donation to the CHF for example.

Regarding the original question, It depends on how bad the overbite is. If it doesn't bother the puppy while eating, I don't see why the puppy would be of less value than any other. but if the lower jaw is so short that the puppy has problems eating or the rest of the teeth are severely misaligned, then I would sell for less. My regular fee is $1500.00 I would sell for $500- 1200 depending on the severity of the problem.

Are YOU serious!

....and who are you? The ethics police?

Would you just put the puppy down? I have never had one born with a severe deformity like that, but I have known puppies born with limb deformities who have been sold by other kennels and lived wonderfully happy lives as cherished pets.

Hypocrite! If you can sell a puppy with a severely misaligned mouth that will cause him problems for the rest of his life for up to $1200, why couldn't I sell a puppy with a deformed limb that will never cause him a problem for a discount? Plus, you charge $500 more for pets than I do. Your severely misaligned mouth would still go for more than many reputable breeders in this country sell for.

For me it depends on the severity of the overbite. Some significant overbites require a visit to the vet and oral surgery prior to 7 weeks to remove the lower canines and incisors to give the bite an opportunity to normalize. Xrays are also recommended to make sure the adult tooth buds are growing in normally. In a severe case, this is the breeder's responsibility to make it right, for the sake of the puppies and for the prospective owners.
No you don't HAVE to do all this, but if you do not give the bite a chance to normalize by removing the lower teeth, the lower canines will dig into the upper palate when the adult teeth grow in, causing the dog pain and the owner the expense of having the adult canines filed down, capped or removed. It is much more traumatic, complicated and expensive for the owner to do the oral surgery later on in life.
The xrays on the adult tooth buds will give you an idea if the puppy will require further surgery as an adult, or if the vet feels the bite will be normal.
I had two puppies in one litter have the oral surgery and xrays at 7 weeks. The veterinarian thought one would correct when the adult teeth came in(he did) and the other would not (he did not), based on the xrays. This gave me the best information I could get to predict future expenses on these two puppies, which I shared with the owner (they were suckers for the second, worse off bite puppy and got him too!)
So in this litter, I spent several hundred dollars for each puppy to have xrays and oral surgery and sold one for full price, and the other for less, since we knew the new owners would probably have to do a second expensive oral surgery at a future point.
I just felt it was my responsibility as a breeder to ensure that the puppies were adequately evaluated and treated on my watch, and that I gave the new owners the best information I could to predict future problems. These people are friends for life now due to the experiences we shared. And it made me a better breeder and made me more careful about avoiding overbites in my breeding program.
It's not always about money.

Oral surgery??????? My vet clips the canines with a nail clipper. No extra charge.

It looks like you are one of a very few breeders to follow a moral solution. I applaud you.
"I just felt it was my responsibility as a breeder to ensure that the puppies were adequately evaluated and treated on my watch, and that I gave the new owners the best information I could to predict future problems. These people are friends for life now due to the experiences we shared. And it made me a better breeder and made me more careful about avoiding overbites in my breeding program.
It's not always about money."




To the poster "OH BOY", I am not an Animal rights activist but do believe in taking care of my animals.

You are an inspiration to me. If you can spare a moment, would you email me.

I do not consider a bite under or over, a problem for a pet. However, something that might require surgery of some sort, would be different. In that case, I would usually say regular price, but I will pay for the surgery at my vet when time appropriate (if it couldn't be done prior to placement).

Anything that keeps a dog from doing the FUNCTION it was purchased, needs to be considered carefully prior to placement. But if it is cosmetic, like an off bite, that doesn't impede the dog from doing anything a pet would do. Now, if they wanted to show and the bite was off, well that's a no-brainer. It will not suit.

Years ago, I did reduce price a bit for an off bite, but once I started boarding those dogs back, I noticed most of the bites had by then corrected...

Best,

Leslee Pope
Huntcrest

Sorry, but if your vet clips teeth with nerve endings in them with nail clippers without anesthesia, he should be reported to the veterinary board for animal abuse. This is a direct quote from the dental specialist I saw years ago, when I told him people in this Forum had done this.
Exposed nerves and roots are extremely painful. Dogs often don't show this type of pain as they are pack animals and Labradors' appetites are legendary, so they will eat through the pain. But you can be sure that cutting into the tooth and creating a sharp edge not only rarely works to correct the problem, but is painful and wrong on so many levels.
I hope we can eliminate this abusive practice.

"remove the lower canines and incisors to give the bite an opportunity to normalize."

All that needs to be done is to snip the tips off the lower canines and let the mouth make the proper adjustment. My vet can do this procedure in a few minutes and the pup eats happily and comfortably. He might not be able to pick up pins in his mouth but he'll never miss a meal.

I also do not find this abusive on puppy teeth. It is just the tips and these are not permanent teeth.
Of course you dental specialist doesn't want you tipping teeth he wants to charge you $1000 to remove baby teeth.

heck dew claws are removed at birth with no pain killers. Sometimes common sense needs to step in.