So took a few of my dogs to my ACVO last week for annual exams and much to my surprise my youngest (15 mos old) has cataracts....she passed her eye exam with flying colors as a puppy last year. She is the result of an outcross but in talking with my ACVO he said that both parents have to be carriers to produce an affected dog. He said there is really no way to breed around it since there is no gene test to identify carriers prior to breeding and it continues to be the most common eye problem seen in retrievers in general. He went on to say that it really should not affect her eye sight or health as a pet long term.

This is the first time in 18 years of breeding that I have dealt with this nasty little surprise so I wanted to ask the forum. If you have experienced this, how do you manage it in your program when it comes up?

I am struggling with how to move forward since there is really no intelligent way to breed around it without a gene test.

Anyone else in this boat and how did you move forward?

They are called juvenile cataracts for a reason - they tend to show up this age. They aren't breedable (IMHO). I've had one, years ago - neutered and placed the dog. I didn't breed him, but his breeder didn't place the mom and I don't believe it was ever produced again.

I recommend you go for a 2nd opinion before you consider retiring a 15 mos girl from showing & breeding.

If it wasn't seen on the 8 to 11 weeks puppy ACVO exam, for all you know, your ACVO could be wrong this time or last time. Probably not but just in case there is an error, especialy on this end of 15 mos.

I will never again place or retire a Lab without going for a 2nd opinion or exam. I goofed once in 25 years and will never take 1 Vets opinion as the Gospel again. You want to be sure both Vet specialists agree on the same exact diagnosis. It's worth a 2nd $100 spent, if it's not a clinic. Oh, how much those clinics can save us but so can 2nd opinions. G.L.

I take it that your pup doesn't show any visual problems.

My puppy has problems going down steps and the veterinary ophthalmologist who we visited when she was 5 months old said there were no structural problems with her eyes.

I hope we don't have a nasty shock if we get her eyes tested in the future!

BTW, our specialist highly recommended Lutein supplements for our pup.

I faced a similar situation: I kept 2 litter mates, both were examined at 8 weeks and were sound. At their first AVCO exam (about 12 months), with the same ophthalmologist, one was diagnosed with a cataract in one eye; the other one passed. I was told her vision would probably not suffer but to expect a cataract in the other eye by the following year.

I was devastated as she is a beautiful bitch, being shown and pointed -- and I had planned to breed her. I took her immediately for a second opinion and the result was the same. I have kept her because I can't bear to part with her but I will not breed her. I would like to hear what other have experienced as well.

Thanks...it is not a question about breeding this puppy bitch. But how it is managed in programs. It is a recessive from what I understand so both parents carry the gene.

I question it because how do we identify who is carrying the gene until it is expressed. I guess in the grand scheme how is it managed? Retiring everything related to these dogs is not realistic and would be an over reaction.

In talking with my ACVO, these do not generally show up until they are a year or older.

I suppose there is no logical way to manage except to continue to do our exams? I did see that Optigen is currently researching to identify the gene but I don't know how far along they are in their research.

In the big picture it is not the worst thing that can happen...I will take cataracts over TVD, HD or epilepsy. At least I can place her in a home as a happy pet and her health should not be adversely affected. Obviously I would like to avoid producing it in the future, but I am guessing that is not realistic since we don't really know what is carried until it is produced.

Ironically this bitch goes all the way back to my foundation bitch. Who knows if the gene has been there all along or if it was unknowingly introduced at some point along the way. Really impossible to say.

First of all, what kind of cataracts are these? You've never specified, at least not that I read, just what type they are. Are they Juvenile (as someone speculated), are they triangular, are they punctate or are they sutured cataracts? Some are breeder options as they never pose a problem to the dog and many breeders will breed those types of cataracts as they really are no big deal and may or may not be hereditary.

Please be more specific so you can get a better educated opinion.

The only way we can resolve this is if people would send the requested samples to Optigen. They are way ahead on a test for this problem, but they need more proof.

Remember the ridiculously long time it took to get enough samples sent to the people researching Epilepsy?

Many breeders have come across this problem with the triangular cataracts. But most don't make the effort or don't want to admit/submit their pedigrees.

I have had 3 cases in 34 years, and I sent in the samples and info. The stud dogs I used who are the fathers of those puppies are carriers. The stud owners were informed. I have spoken in person to Gus Aguirre - YES, it is a recessive and it takes both parents to produce it. But, I will bet you, the stud dog owners didn't send in the samples or info.

UNLESS YOU SEND THE INFO AND SAMPLES TO OPTIGEN, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. HOW ABOUT BECOMING PART OF THE SOLUTION???!!!

Email or call me for more info.

First of all to "Hello"? they are Juvenile Cataracts (triangular)which is what research is testing for. It is not a breeder option. I have a very good working relationship with my ACVO and I even saw what he was looking at. They are pretty easy to spot with a dialated eye.

To Laura...I was not aware of the research until I found it on the Optigen website a few days ago. I wonder how many people are aware of it? Hopefully this will help remind those who may have forgotten or bring attention to those that are not aware.

Yes, I already have submitted my results form to see if my girl will be accepted...per the Optigen instructions. I have no problem sharing information for the sake of research which will hopefully result in healthier dogs.

Yes the sire of the pup has been discreetly notified. I realize he is a carrier...which is what I have stated previously.

I am merely asking, in the meantime what have breeders done to manage this. Once you encountered this, what did you do to move forward with your program? I am not talking the affected individuals but those that were now known carriers? Looking back are there things you would have done differently?

If it is proven to be a simple recessive, it would be wonderful to have this test at our disposal, because we would not need to discard some very valuable affecteds from our breeding programs.

My comments were not directed at you, the OP. Congratulations and THANK YOU for sending in the info.

We have discussed these Triangular Cataracts many times before right here on this Forum. I have always gone in and posted about the research. And still, few have helped.

If we get this test approved, then we can pull blood or a cheek swab on our baby pups, send them to Optigen and get the status for all 3 problems, PRA and RD/OSD (already available) and in the Future T.Cataracts.

When I asked Aguirre, he said don't spay my bitch yet, wait and see if we get the test approved before she is too old to breed.

My local ACVO who originally diagnosed the TC's said, since my affect bitch was
1. Not diagnosed until after 2 years old, despite 3 previous normal ACVO exams,
2. a Can.Champion and AKC Major Pointed
3. OFA Excellent Hips
4. OFA Elbows Normal
5. OFA Echo Normal
6. Optigen A, etc.
7. these cataracts have no effect on her vision
8. If I used an older clear dog not known to produce them, she would probably not produce cataracts any worse than her own which would not interfere with vision.

In his opinion, he thought it was not worth "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". That she was a lovely dog and this was a minor problem.

I bred 1 litter from her. All the pups are fine. But I only used my own dog so as not to involve another breeder. The pups were nice but not spectacular. I felt that if I could not breed her to the best match without really knowing if the dog was a carrier, it just wasn't worth producing pet quality pups from her.
She was spayed and placed.

How do you manage it? I never bred to those three stud dogs again. I have kept track of where I have heard it popping up and avoided those dogs.

Hopefully the ones we keep are clear. I don't relax about it popping up again until they are over 3 years old.

You can be honest with the stud dog owners you approach for stud service that TC's may be lurking in that particular part of your pedigree. You can hope they will be honest with you about if they have ever been told their dogs produced them.

I had a dog diagnosed with juvenile triangular cataracts in 2001. The ACVO vet said the dog's vision would always be normal. The dog was placed in a pet home.

Since then I have always wondered if any dog diagnosed with this type of cataract ever suffered loss of vision. If anyone can answer this question for me, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA

Laura thank you for all the great information.

I have a bitch that was diagnosed with TC at 4 1/2 years old after clearances since she was a pup. She was bred to a dog for her last litter not known at all for producing this. When breeding her the last time she was not yet known to have them.

I have a young dog out of this last litter of hers that has already passed his 1st CERF. What are the chances he is a "carrier"? How does this pass??? IF only 1 of the parents is a carrier the get will all be clear?

Next question can he still be bred to a bitch that may have TCs? I agree not to throw the baby out with the bathwater but would only breed a bitch IF she had TC's to one of my own dogs.

TIA

To Breeder:
I was told that many of the Guide Dogs have these TC's. So we asked why dogs who have them are good enough to be the eyes for a blind person, but we should not breed them? The answer I received was that, years ago in Labs, the cataracts were bad and did affect vision. After years of checking and eliminating the affected dogs from the breeding programs, only the mild form remains. The fear is that if we start breeding the mild form, the more serious form will come back. And since we were close to having an approved test, why not just wait.

To Q for me:
"I have a young dog out of this last litter of hers that has already passed his 1st CERF. What are the chances he is a "carrier"? If his dam was affected then 100% he is a carrier. If his dam was bred to an unknown carrier, I believe it is 50% affected and 50% carriers. If his dam was bred to an affected, then 100% affected.

"How does this pass???" Same as the other recessives - Each parent can have 1 clear gene and 1 carrier gene, or 2 clear genes or 2 carrier genes. They give only one of them to each puppy.

"IF only 1 of the parents is a carrier the get will all be clear?" No, they will all be UN-affected, but about 50% will be carriers.

"Next question can he still be bred to a bitch that may have TCs?" Since you already said his dam was affected, he must be a carrier, so No.

Hope that helps. I'm not a geneticist, although I did take courses in genetics as electives in college! So, if I have my numbers wrong, would a real geneticist please correct them, THX.

Thank you. In essence it's the same as PRA as far as clear, carrier/non affected, affected. Makes perfect sense.

When I had my dog at the ACVO for his CERF exam he was diagnosed junvenile cataracts, I wasn't told Optigen is researching this disease. I was only told that he would not pass CERF. I'm glad to know now there is ongoing research because my beautiful boy who has all of the other clearances now has to be taken out of my breeding program due to a disease that there really is NO WAY to know it is lurking back there in the gene pool. Maybe my dog will be the one to make the difference in the research. At least I will feel like he made a difference.

Maybe we need to put some pressure on the ACVO doctors to inform anyone diagnosed with this disease about the research instead of assuming people are ignoring it or choosing not to participate. If a pet is diagnosed with juvenile cataracts they would have no way of knowing about any research unless their doctor tells them. I know some people don't want their kennel name associated with "any" problem. But the truth of the matter is, if this problem is in their pedigree's their names will be associated with junvenile cataracts when other people participating in this research submit pedigree's.

I'm sad that I am going to have to place this beautiful sweet boy that I love. But since I am a small breeder with limited space to keep dogs, this one is going to have to be placed in a pet home.

I've found many ACVOs don't know/don't care about the research going on. Over the years I've tried to talk to the guy I usually go to about PRA and he just doesn't seem interested. Odd...

Exactly, the one I saw this time could have cared less that he just delivering horrible news. He wasn't interested in talking to me about what this meant, how to prevent this disease other than this dog was NOT to be used in a breeding program. With doctor's like this we can't place the sole blame on breeders who do not participate in the research. JMHO

Sorry I may be coming across as old and cranky (which I sometimes am) but let's all take the responsibility for the health and well-being of our own breed.

It is not up to the vets to keep us informed. They treat ALL breeds and all of their different issues. In a perfect world they would give us the info. But the world ain't perfect. So WE must be the guardians and advocates of our precious breed.

I'll bet most people learned about EIC from this forum and NOT from a vet. And most people are testing for it, even though few show dogs collapse. And that is only because a certain couple of breeders were constantly on here banging the drum.

How many breeders are testing for the RD/OSD when they run the Optigen PRA test? Very few. Most likely not until someone gets a dog diagnosed with it. Then they make use of the test. Why not just have Optigen run it along with the PRA test? I would rather know what their status is before I have a vet diagnosis of retinal folds and wonder if my dog has the gene for dwarfism.

This subject about the TC's has been covered here many times. But nobody has been beating the drum about it. After watching all that Joan did for a couple of years to get owners of a measly 25 pairs of Epileptic affected and clear littermates to send in samples for research, why bother.

If we, as Lab breeders, want to get this test approved, it is up to US.

HOPEFULLY, NOW EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE RESEARCH AND WILL SEND IN THE INFO AND SAMPLES.

For many many years, a great many of us have had every litter of pups we bred eyes examined by an ACVO before they leave our homes. This is especially common here in the NJ area.

I can't wait until we can send in a cheek swab or blood sample on each pup in the litter and know what their status is for PRA, RD/OSD and Cataracts. No more dragging the pups a long way to the ACVO vet. No more worrying if the one we want to keep will be clear, a carrier or affected for any or all 3 major eye problems. No more having our Specialty Winning Champion or beloved brood bitch turn out to be affected or a carrier for some health issue. Been there, done that.

So glad for all of this dialogue and thank you Laura for all of this additional information!! I agree we need to take responsibility.

I will say I don't know how many ACVO vets are aware of the research? At least mine was not because we had a discussion at length about it and I asked if there was any going on. When he told me it was a simple recessive, it prompted me to pose the question. As I started to look into it, I did remember hearing about research a few years ago but I did not remember at the time of the exam. I suppose it was out of sight out of mind...I think we tend to put focus on whatever is most important at that present time...right or wrong...I think it is human nature.

I agree that ACVO's see so many different types of breeds and we need to be responsible for staying on top of the research for our own breed. Hopefully this thread will prove to be a reminder for folks like me who had "forgotten".