Why is it that Labs get less respect in the Group Ring?

Why are Cockers in the Sporting Group? Haven't seen one in the field since the early 50's. Haven't seen one with a hunt title shown in a ring ever.

Why are Cockers split into three colors - labs are not?

Why when you go to a Sporting Dog Show - Labs have to have a AKC Hunt title - other sporting breeds sometimes only have to have WC?

Got to go do my house work now!

In other breeds the requirements for a WC are much more difficult than they are for a Lab. The Labrador test is a very basic instinct test with minimal requirements. In other breeds, such as Goldens or Flat Coats, the requirements are more difficult so the WC is more the equivalent of a JH/SH.

In Canada, the WC is basically the equivalent of a JH test and is a CKC title, so Gun Dog classes permit them.

I think correctly built Labradors with effortless movement do fairly well in the group ring - I have known several that have done well. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Labs that look very pretty standing but move poorly; movement is not a priority for many. Many are also kept and shown overweight and/or out of condition. Since it is the dog on the day, the breeds that are kept in top (working) condition are going to get a better look.

Not sure what you mean by a Sporting Dog show. The New England Sporting Groups shows have no such requirement. I don't think the Big Apple SG does either.

Generally speaking, the coated breeds do better in Sporting Group than shorter coated breeds (not just Labs). I think it's because things can be hidden by grooming technique more in those breeds. The only way to have that not happen is for judges to do a good hands on exam to confirm what their eyes told them initially. Group judges just don't spend a lot of time on the hands on and aren't very thorough - again, generally speaking. A lot of the decisions come down to movement.

Agree with Greg and to add a bit more on the movement piece. A correctly built Lab does not fly around the ring like some of the other breeds. It takes a judge who knows what they are looking at.

A well built Lab does not "fly" around the ring, but they should have reach and drive and the movement should be clean and balanced. Unfortunately, I have heard many breeder judges say movement is not a priority and it shows in what often wins under them. At a huge supported entry in our area last year, a breeder judge gave a dog that moved as if it were crippled (I literally thought something was wrong with it-probably due to extreme over-angulation that at his age was causing him to fall apart) Select points. It was pretty standing. This is with many other specialty winning champions entered. A limping bitch was rewarded RWB at our specialty a few years ago, to the amazement of many. I highly doubt either one of these dogs would be considered for a group placement, nor should they be. I do not understand why clean movement is not valued more as it is critical to holding up in the field, even in short intervals.

A lot of Labs are missing turn of stifle and well-angulated fronts that give them reach and drive (and also gives them a neck that is built for retrieving). A Labrador built for function stands under its withers (not its neck)in front. It gives them proper structure for swimming. Hocks are well-let down with good turn of stifle and a decent second thigh to give them strength off the rear. They are also in good condition to allow them to move with ease.

Heavy/overweight Labs (which is what is often the condition in which they are shown) do not move like a Lab that has good condition. Many of the top group winners are kept in good condition. The Group winners should be prime examples of a functional working dog. At that level of competition a nice but unfit dog is not going to be competitive and should not be.

Good for you Nancy, I am glad that you hunt with your cocker. I know of a dedicated group that have Cockers that hunt,show and do obedience work. I agree that the "hair dogs" do better in the Group, they look so flashy flying around the ring. The Labs that I have seen win/place in the group are in very good condition and are really nice movers.I

Our breed is a working breed. I can't stand a dog that is a trashy mover .... don't like overdone dogs either .. a nice outline is nice, but they need to be able to do their job and do it for hours on end .. I think back to my dad's Labs that hunted into December up here in the frozen north and could work for hours on end.

I think that it is hard to compete with the other sporting dogs in group if you are not out there at alot of the circuits and involved in the politics

that's just the way it is with most judges at the group level

I have a dog that won a group placement out of the classes at a major entry show who was shown on a pretty limited basis - the dog is not well-known by any judge. Many of the other dogs in the group were nationally ranked. I know several people who have won group placements with their Labs owner-handled. None of these dogs were "campaigned". All of them have also either won at specialties and/or had nice placements. The one thing these dogs had in common is they are all nicely structured, balanced, fit, clean moving dogs.

There will always be politics - some of the most obvious I have seen have been at specialty shows so it is not limited to the group ring at all breed shows. However, overall I think judges try to do the right thing and can only judge what enters their ring. Given the extremes of this breed, the overall lack of condition (compared to other breeds I have seen shown), and the variety of styles (coats, heads, etc.), I think it is one of the harder breeds to judge.

It is easy to point to politics or bad judging as to why a dog does not win. Sometimes it may be true, but do I believe there is some big conspiracy? No - if there were, I would stop showing. From what I have seen, people with nice typey dogs win more often than they do not and are competitive at both all-breeds and specialties. They also hold their own in the group ring.

I would just like to address the statement that in Canada a WC is equivalent to a JH. A WC is one test of retrieving aptitude on land and water, the bird does not have to be delivered to hand although it is preferable. A JH in Canada requires 3 passes with each test consisting of 2 land retrieves to hand and 2 water retrieves to hand, the dog is judged on their execution of the retrieves. Depending on your judges,location and competition, some tests are more difficult than others.

A recent list of the top ten sporting dogs according to Dog News include 2 German Wirehaired Pointers, 1 English Springer, 1 Cocker Spaniel, 2 English Setters, 1 Golden Retriever, 2 Weimeraners, 1 Clumber Spaniel. Not all flashy movers, not all hairy dogs.