shut. I know of a Labrador who will be going to her new home very late in this year. I don't know the seller at all so feel I would not be able to approch them But I do know where the dog is going to and to be frank it is no more than an up market puppy mill, and will have a shite of a life,the girl will be used as a puppy factory, both the seller and the buyer are very well known kennels, well I assume the seller is based on the kennel name of the girl.I could say much more on what I know of the buyer but will not, all I want to know is as breeders would you say anything or just shut up, and please no flames here it is a genuine question.

I always speak for those who can not.

If both the seller and the buyer are well-known, wouldn't the seller already know what kind of home the puppy will have?

If more people far away had asked, approximately 100 Labs would not have ended up involved in a highly publicized kennel raid in PA in 2010. Then again, people from only a few hours away were fooled, too, and it was theft that got her caught. Speak up with facts for the sake of the dogs.

In my case I was fooled by someone I thought was a friend and had known for many years so there was a certain level of trust, but had I known her true situation (nearly 100 Labs) I never would have sold her my puppy as it wasn't the type of place I would want one of my dogs in at all. I cared enough to continue to find out what had happened to my boy.It still didn't answer all my questions but did tell me what I had suspected all along.

It doesn't cost anything to speak up.

Unless this person selling the puppy is your best friend and you have first hand knowledge of how the buyer raises her dogs, you have no friggen business saying anything!

Breeders just love trashing each other, calling them nothing more than this or that, telling people they breed the hell out of their dogs, or god forbid they breed and make money.

Just who do you think you are judging other breeders on what you hear? What gives you the right to impose your ethics on other people and if they don't breed the way you've been told is the only way to breed that you can just go trash them about it? Why is it a crime to make money breeding dogs?

It seems fine for handlers, vets, food suppliers, and everyone else and their brother to make money off dogs, but nope breeders shouldn't be allowed to do such a horrible deed?

You all have bought the Animal Right's mantra hook, line and sinker. You keep trashing each other, trying to act like your way is the only way to breed dogs and there will be no one left to stand up for you when they come to take your rights away.

So you've been to this person house, her dogs are in filthy, overcrowded conditions? So call the HSUS and they will give you $5000 to turn her in. Otherwise, just because you don't agree with the way her dogs are raised, doesn't give you the right to condemn her. No, probably not someone you'd sell a dog to, so don't. There are a lot of people I wouldn't sell a dog to, but I wouldn't go around telling other people not to sell to them.

You many not be Animal Rights, but they've conditioned all well about what is considered ethical and what's not. We've swallowed it, preached it and now it will be our downfall if we continue to have a closed mind.

There are plenty of animal welfare laws on the books. If you think this person is in violation because you've been to her house and you've seen how she cares for her dogs, then call the authorities. Otherwise, yes, shut your mouth.

Oh and I woke up on the right side of the bed, just get tired of people vomiting up all the animal rights terms to continue dividing breeders. If you've been there and think the label fits, do something, if you just don't like the way they breed, then shut up. You came on a public forum, don't be put off if someone disagrees with you.

Sounds to me like Jamie's question hit a little to close to home for you, What You Know.

She asked for help in deciding what would be the right thing to do in this circumstance. No need to come at her in such a hostile fashion unless, of course, you have a guilty conscience and think she might be talking about you!

Nice try. I breed on a very small scale and keep just a few dogs.

I have also learned that it's not nice to stereotype and judge breeders by the numbers they keep or without seeing how they raise their dogs. Just because you don't agree with how they do thing, doesn't give you the right to force them to adhere to your own ethics.

Advising someone you do not know will more than likely bite you in the butt. If the seller was very concerned about where her dog is going, she'd do her homework and her own research.

I feel for your situation. We have a breeder that we know of (might even be the same one). She completely over-breeds her bitches. She has been witnessed beating dogs and puppies at shows. She has not got the best interest of the breed at heart. I would be devastated if one of my dogs ended up at her kennels. The problem is that if you tell on her then you look like a stirrer and get accused of sour grapes. There is more to keeping dogs than just making sure they are clean. There is a saying - shoot the messenger. That is probably what would happen if you say anything as you do not know how well the 2 breeders in question know each other now.

I have not read all the responses, because the ones that tell you to MYOB are pissing me of. Breeders---ask yourselves this----would you want to be told? If you answer no, than shame on you. If you answer yes, than stop condemning someone who wants to stop a dog going into a bad situation. OP---If it is awkward for you, and I can understand why it would be, then mail off an anonymous letter. The breeder will understand why it is anonymous, if he/she reads this thread. Then you will have done what you can, and maybe the breeder will investigate a bit more before she lets the dog go. Hopefully, the situation the dog is in now is not just as bad or worse.

Please tell the breeder. For the sake of our Labradors. Some seem to be a little sensitive about the issue. You know where the dog is going to end up. Tell them. I have seen some who I always thought of as nice breeders working these days with puppy mill people. Sad to see dogs with their kennel name on them with these people. Some are miles away, may not know, but afraid some don't care. I would want you to alert me.

You should tell them but could start with a question, "What will her life be like there? Have you researched how often she breeds each bitch? Have you visited her kennel?" Just some ideas. If you get her to find the information and make the decision with questions, then no one can come back and say, "Breeder X said something bad about breeder Z."

I've learned with 5 teens (1 adopted) that questions lead them to make the right decision themselves and then they own that decision.

If you can sleep at night...you know you did the right thing....whatever that may be....JMHO.

I know if the seller was my friend I would probably be saying something like, "Are you really going to sell your girl to so-and-so? Don't you know she is just a high end puppy mill?" We would still be friends after that.

The seller is not a friend of yours. In that case, you run the risk of pissing her off big time. Plus, chances are you would not be listened to. You have to weigh the possible consequences and make your own decision.

As a breeder who was fooled and placed dogs with someone that did not share the same values in being a steward of this breed as I do...YES..please share your concerns. Be tactful and give facts only. From there it is that breeder's decision but at least you provided information that they can base a decision on.

Actually, the saying is "Don't shoot the messenger", but that isn't the point here...

The OP (Jamie) must do what is weighing heavily on his/her conscience. And, it isn't about the people. It's about the bitch because she (the bitch) can't fend for herself in this situation. Good for you Jamie!

Seems to me is the OP isn't based here in the States, simply based on vernacular, e.g. "up market puppy mill"; "will have a shite of a life". On the other hand, it could just be poor spelling/grammar; "shut" (pretty sure he/she meant "Shoot"; "approch" (pretty sure he/she meant "approach"), but I suppose that is also irrelevant.

All that aside, we must ALL do what is in the best interest of the breed.

The poster who calls him/herself "What you know" clearly doesn't have the "best interest of the breed" at heart since he/she doesn't understand what is wrong with "breeding for profit". I quote, "god forbid they breed and make money". Hello?! God is capitalized, whether you believe, or not. And people who breed for profit are called puppy mills! Additionally, his/her comment, "Why is it a crime to make money breeding dogs?" Oh dear...don't get me started!

And by the way, "What you know"; you clearly have a problem with anger management and your objectionable comment, "Oh and I woke up on the right side of the bed, just get tired of people vomiting up all the animal rights terms to continue dividing breeders. If you've been there and think the label fits, do something, if you just don't like the way they breed, then shut up. You came on a public forum, don't be put off if someone disagrees with you" speaks volumes about your state of mind.

Just because Jamie's conscience is tugging at his/her heart doesn't give you the right to turn our breed of choice into "cash cows".

I would tell them. If they get mad that tells you they know what is going on and don't care. They are making money too ! Sad when it gets all about the money.

If you don NOT speak up, you are saying you support a puppy mill!

If in your position I would say something. Ignore the big mouth that might be the possible buyer for
all you or any of us know. You asked for no flames, if she doesn't approve then keep her nasty mouth shut.

Go with your gut and heart, you just might be saving this girl from a miserable life. I give you alot of credit for coming here for opinions knowing at least 1 flaming fool would flame your post.

go with your conscience, state your concerns and state that you would hope someone would tell you the same in similar circumstances. Perhaps ask that they site visit the kennel?

Jaime,

Just to be clear am I reading between the lines that boh you and the buyer live outside the US and the seller is from the US/Canada and may not have had the chance to visit the kennel? Maybe a cyber-friendship through a social networking site like Facebook?

I know many breeders who have sold dogs overseas (and even
Domestically) without doing proper research and have regretted the decision. Perhaps you could suggest to the seller that they contact breeders in the buyers vicinity. Tactful wording is obviously necessary and as someone else said you might be better off sending an
Anonymous letter through the postal service rather than an email that may fall into others' mailboxes. It's a tough position to be in, but the dog's best interest should be in mind. If I were the breeder/seller I would certainly want to know!

Cheers!

And FWIW, no I would never sell a dog overseas to someone I didn't know personally and yes, my best friend has sold some nice dogs to people with whom I've advised not to sell to and she went ahead anyway. Later to regret it on some. People must learn the hard lesson for themselves if there is a lesson to be learned.

As someone who got a call from a concerned person a couple of years ago I can tell you I REALLY appreciated it. I had bred to a nice stud dog owned by someone I had sold a dog to previously. (this is NOT a big breeder) I saw her at many specialties over the years and we stayed in touch. She was familiar with the bitch I was breeding and mentioned she might like to buy a puppy from the breeding if they looked good. Because I do NOT give away a pick puppy I paid the stud fee up front but the stud owner had the option to buy a pup if one was available. There was a nice male she was interested in but I hadn't decided yet if I was going to sell him or maybe co-own him with her and he would live with her. I got a call from a mutual friend of ours who lives near her and that person said they really felt that I needed to know some things before I made a decision to send the puppy there (about 500 miles away). After hearing what she had to say as well as being able to confirm it through another source I told the stud owner I was keeping the pup. I have no regrets about doing that as some other things came out later and I knew I made the best decision. I will be forever grateful to the person who went out on a limb to call me. I only breed once a year or less and I would have been so upset if my puppy had ended up in a bad situation (that actually got worse).

I would approach the person selling the dog to this breeder and inform her no problem I do not care the dog and all Labs are my first concern not the humans they can take care of themselves but our friends and family members need us to protect them. If this story is true please take the time to call some one right away do not let this breeder do more harm. If I was at a show and saw her beating a dog or a puppy her life would be in my hands for a minute or two with the same treatment. I would go to Jail for any pet I see being treated like this and I do say this from my heart for the love of every Lab out there and all the other ones to. They did not ask to be born they were created by breeders and if they can not treat them properly with love and respect and care they do not belong being hidden by people that know of her practices. Wake up and do what is right for the dog and her dogs turn her in for pete's sake I would not think about it more than one second. Whether other breeders who know me or not and many do like it or not to bad I am not a Puppy mill and never will be.I would sound off with a bull horn. I pray you do the right thing!!!

You want to know why? I'll tell you why. The problem I have with this whole scenario is that I know how people like to gossip about others. I also know that people have different sets of values than others. The holier-than-thou breeders who think everyone should only breed like them are some of the worst at bashing other breeders. Not everyone can independently afford to show dogs. Why is is a sin to breed and make money? I do not believe for one minute with the saying above that when you breed for profit, you throw your ethics out the window. There are many breeders who do not. They still do all their clearances and many more than others because they can actually afford it over those small breeders who struggle to make entry fees or pay a large stud fee. Stereotyping larger breeders is simply wrong. Secondly, just because a bitch has more than the magic "three" litters doesn't automatically.throw you into the evil pile. There are many reasons why a bitch is bred more than three times and why is three the assumed number to be a reputable breeder?

As for my personal experience, I have been warned about breeders. I have been told all this same emotionally manipulative terms over breeding, substandard breeding facility, etc. I've personally visited these breeders and you know what? IT WASN'T TRUE! And yes, I've sold them dogs and gotten dogs from them and bred to their dogs. You know why? Because they have nice dogs and take good care of them. Why is this considered wrong? Why would someone tell me these breeders were the scum of Labradordom? Because their ethics were different? Because they were jealous of their success? Because they do things correctly and still can make money? Why oh why is this so wrong? I also know a breeder years ago had a lovely bitch. This bitch produced just one or two puppies per breeding. So she was bred way more than 3 times because she had just a few puppies. Is this wrong?

Why do I protest so much? I certainly do not know who the OP is talking about, let alone really care because it's none of my business. I protest because we can't afford to keep telling each other how to breed dogs all the while the Radical Animal Rights Groups keep pushing laws that will affect ALL breeders. If we keep playing their game, agreeing with their emotionally manipulative terminology and photos, they will defeat us. We need to stop slamming each other for being different and having different goals as long as we are taking care of our animals. It's not about policing ourselves anymore, it's about standing up and stopping the advances of the RARG. Their agenda is to stop all breeding. They make no distinctions and will stop at nothing to reach their goal. They propose laws aimed at shutting down those substandard kennels and all animal lovers hear that term they use and see the photos (often doctored or staged). The public listens. They are even trying to get the Girl Scouts to turn the public against the AKC by saying they are mean to puppies because they do not support the proposed APHIS laws. AKC does not support it because it will hurt small breeders. But the RARGs don't tell you that. They don't tell the public that. In effect, all breeders are being made to be evil. But that is exactly what we are doing to each other by continually bashing each other. We are so busy doing that, that we don't even bother to see the bigger picture.

How many of you on here are aware of the APHIS rules? How many of you have signed the AKC petition? How many of you left a comment on the APHIS website opposing this? How many of you really even care? The last question is the reason I protest so much.

Was anything ever said?