One of my five month old pups has been diagnosed with atrial septic defect with blood flowing from the left into the right atrium, and with some blood flow from the left to the right ventricle. He went to the vet for a routine matter when it was discovered; his owner had no idea anything was wrong. The defect was found on ultrasound after the vet heard a murmur. (This is the same vet who cleared the pups before they went home, and he's been giving he pup his shots for the new owner. He's excellent so the murmur must not have been apparent earlier.)

According to the vet, the prognosis for the pup is not good but he is searching for a cardiologist to confirm his suspicions.

Has anyone on here ever had a pup with atrial septic defect? Anyone ever have their pup get open heart surgery for it, and if so, what were the results? The owner is willing to do surgery if there's hope but she doesn't have unlimited funds, and she was recently laid off. I feel just awful. I'm giving her money back but that can't ease the heartache for her or the puppy. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Also, should I spay my bitch? She's healthy as a horse and has clearances up the wazoo, including a heart clearance by a cardiologist -- as did her brother. Hers was auscultation; his was color Doppler. I don't want to spay her if it's not necessary because she's such a good whelper and a fantastic mom, but I certainly don't want to perpetuate this defect. This is her first litter.

I'm so depressed over this. The pup is a sweetheart and the family adores him. I've never had anything this serious pop up in my almost twenty years of breeding.

Here is one page of info - http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/atrial-septal-defect-asd

I would not repeat the same breeding; keep in mind that sire or dam may never produce this again, when bred to different dogs.

First - how sure is this vet that it isn't TVD? That said - get the puppy to a cardiologist for color doppler ultrasound. AND get the mom echoed as well - don't rely on auscultation for her any more, regardless of the puppy's definitive diagnosis.

A cardiologist, color doppler is the only way to get the truth. One of our families's regular vets heard a murmur in their young dog upon a routine exam. This concerned the family so I set up an exam at my cardilogist to get their girl's heart ultra sound. The exam showed their girl had a perfectly normal heart and that the family's regular vet needs a hearing aid. This same vet also wanted to do surgery on this same dog to fix a slightly inverted vulva. I told this family to find another vet that wasn't so quick to mis diagnose their young dog.

I do agree with getting a cardiologist's second opinion. But seriously, every heart issue isn't a hereditary defect and really TVD in disguise.

This was an interesting article: http://ic.upei.ca/cidd/disorder/atrial-septal-defect-asd

It seems even when mode of inheritance isn't known, eventually everyone says don't breed the dogs ever again. Obviously the pet with the problem shouldn't be bred. I would suggest a full echo on your bitch if you absolutely need to breed her again. Give yourself a few months to adjust to the news. When it's all said and done you might find that not breeding that bitch again really wasn't going to be in your plan after all. If you do decide, I would stay away from line breeding on her or on the previous stud.

No matter what the heart defect is, for a 5 month puppy it sounds serious. I would travel if need be to have it properly diagnosed and if possible treated well.

You're doing the right thing refunding their entire monies paid. It allows them to have help with the initial diagnosis. They will have many more expenses, especially in the diagnosis time. At this time, that would be most important I'm sure to them & to you.

If it were me, I would spay & never breed the bitch again and never use the stud dog again with my lines but that's jmo. I've never seen a heart ailment yet and feel very fortunate not to have yet recieved a call or email like you did after reading your story.

Hopefully the pup owners will have an appointment this coming week and you'll all get to the bottom of this. It shouldn't take the regular vet long to find a cardiologist unless you're in Alaska or Hawaii.

I hope this puppy can have a normal or semi-normal life and it's a mild defect be it atrial, TVD or a wild card we've never heard of. The only way to find out exactly what this poor baby was born with would be with a cardiologist doing an echo. I hope you let us know what the diagnosis is.

Think it's a bit premature to say 'spay & never breed the bitch again'. More research is needed.

I am lucky I have not had that particular problem occur. If you read what I said, "If it were me, I would spay & never breed the bitch again and never use the stud dog again with my lines but that's jmo. I've never seen a heart ailment yet and feel very fortunate not to have yet recieved a call or email like you did after reading your story."

It's my opinion. It doesn't mean any one has to listen to me. I echo all bitches and when researching a stud dog I make sure he has been by a cardiologist too. I don't want that call if I can avoid it or have a dog ill that I would keep the rest of it's life. Again, it's JMO and wouldn't be premature for me once there was a diagnosis.

We don't know enough about heart defects in the Lab and doubt we will in my lifetime anyway. It's sad for those that have had this happen, breeder and new pup owner.

Know of a pup in another country with same diagnosis. The prognosis was poor, with expected lifespan of a few months. Dog is now 3 1/2 years old and is only moderately disabled ( no anesthesia procedures,not a hunting companion, no prolonged strenuous exercise ). This dog did not have surgery and was diagnosed at same age as your pup. Mom had 5 litters, all different studs and no other pup ever had heart defect. Crap happens.

Do not spay your bitch. This is not the time to get overwhelmed. There is not enough information on your plate yet. Get two opinions from reputable veterinarians who know how to diagnose cardiac problems, do some research on your own, talk to some long-time breeders who have experienced it all and then make a decision.

A few questions you can ask yourself or put your head together with the stud dog owner.

You didn't mention if the stud dog had a heart clearance. Was it done and if so was it auscultation or color echo doppler?

Was this a line breed, any doubling up on one or both sides? Sometimes you'll see a possible culprit staring you in the face while reading the pedigree of the new pups or one of the parents.

I'm all for line breeding but certain lines and dogs shouldn't be for all types of reasons.

I hope the cardio comes up with a good answer for you and the puppy's newer owners. Maybe the puppy can live a normal life and it's not as bad on echo doppler as it appears on ultrasound with a cardio reading the doppler.

I feel the diagnosis of an atrial defect is too soon until a cardiologist and color echo doppler is used. The most common heart defect in Labs and some other breeds is tricuspid valve disease. It's the most common reason for doing heart clearances. I echo all of my dogs and thank those that post clinics on this list. I've paid as little as $95 and up to $175 for a clinic price. The difference in cost for echos and auscultation can be negligible.

I hope the pup has seen a vet cardiologist by now, is diagnosed hopefully with a milder or treatable problem. Ultrasound is not an echo although similar in some ways a 2D doppler is best used for the heart by a cardiologist. I hope this pup does as well as possible and can live a long, full life.

health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/atrial-septal-defect/overview.html

Devasted, did you get a diagnosis on the 5 month pup from a cardio vet yet? Is it atrial or tvd? Mild, moderate or severe?

I hope the pup is doing well and can live a long, quality life. I can't stop thinking of the pup and it's family.