Here is what I have learned in 17 years as a Labrador owner and prospective puppy buyer.

A good breeder:

Breeds in an attempt to better the breed
Has no more than one or two litters a year
X-rays hips, checks eyes and hearts on Dams and Sires
Sells on S/N contract
Does not advertise in the paper
Does not sell Christmas puppies
Does not use her own males
Raises the puppies in her home
All her dogs live in her home
Asks as many questions of the buyer as the buyer asks her
Keeps in touch

Ideally, she has an up-to-date website with great (close-up) pictures of her dogs and descriptions of temperament/personality.

Ideally, she does something with her dogs, whether it be Showing,Hunting, Agility, Dock diving etc.

Are you a good breeder?

Why do you assume a good breeder is only a "she"? Also there is nothing wrong with a breeder using their own male on their own bitch on occasion if they think it is a good match. Some breeders will keep a male who was specifically bred in a way just for that very reason. And I know of plenty of not so good breeders with websites and close up pictures, since when does that make someone a good breeder.

With apologies to the few male breeders for my blunder!

In bettering the breed, it is assumed that the breeder doesn't have the perfect male for her bitch under her own roof, therefore, most would have to use somebody else's stud.

As someone who has searched high and low for a good breeder, it's difficult to find them when so many have web sites that are woefully out of date.

OR the breeder has a stud dog who she/he wants to breed back into the lines or into another line they have. OR the breeder bought a bitch specifically to breed to her stud dog who is too closely related to their own bitches.

I agree - you don't want to look for a breeder who ONLY breeds their bitches to their dogs, but there's nothing wrong with the breeder using their own stud dog on their own bitches some of the time. You also want to steer away from someone using their own (or a friend's) stud dog on the same bitch(es) over and over and over as they are just making puppies. This is a GENERALIZATION, so a repeat is not a bad thing here and there.

I always tell puppy people to ask the breeder WHY they did a particular breeding - the answer should not be "because I have the mom and dad here" - they should be able to verbalize a reason such as "the stud has been producing the upper-arm length I need for this bitch" or "I need to correct tailset and the stud dog has been producing consistently good tailsets", etc....

Yes - we're out here, but because we only have one or two litters a year, catching us when we have an available litter is sometimes very difficult!

It upsets me when they say betterment of the breed. What is wrong with the breed? Betterment meaning they would not breed to something unfavorable?

It does sound very high and mighty, but my understanding is that no dog is perfect, and breeders are striving to correct problems and attempt to come up with the most "perfect" example of a Labrador Retriever.

You will rule out some excellent breeders with that one.

Total and utter rubbish! I've never heard of such a high and mighty set of rules as you've put forth. There are lots of things that make good breeders.

Health and temperament should always be first and foremost.

Betterment of the breed? So a champion Dock Diving dog makes an ideal Labrador?

One or two litters a year? Seriously, how many years will take to develop a distinctive line of Labradors? Back in the day when the breed was first being developed by hunting kennels, the large kennels routinely kept dozens and dozens of dogs. Many large kennels both show and field keep a large number of dogs and breed multiple litters a year. I would like you to tell them they are not a good breeder.

There is a reason the breed has been the number one breed for many years. There is a huge demand for puppies. Why would people who have good dogs not produce more puppies for those who want a well-bred dog? Oh wait, they might make a few bucks. If all breeders only bred one or two litters a year, where will these homes go to get their puppies? Get real. Just another elitist POV.

What makes a good breeder? The same things that make a good person:

Honest
Ethical
Forthright
Courage of their convictions
Accountable
Willing to learn, open-minded to new ideas
Maintains and strives to keep long-term goals, instead of short-term fixes


Everything else is just someone's rules.

What about being willing to take back one of his or her dogs, regardless of the age or reason, rather than let it go to a shelter or rescue?

That seems a better test of a "good breeder" than any fancy website or cheap title. And breeding to one's own dog may be for a good reason, as others have pointed out.

AMEN!

Yes. That would be great to know that the breeder would take the dog back at any age.

I had thought about guarantees, and while they show that the breeder is prepared to stand behind their pups, in reality I cannot see myself returning a dog because of a genetic problem.

It is interesting that several people have mentioned good reasons to breed to their own dogs. It's just difficult to know at the outset who is doing it for good reason and who is doing it because it's convenient.

As someone else states, ask why they did a specific mating.

And the best guarantee offers to return a portion of the purchase price or a replacement puppy, while not making you return the original puppy. Many ask for proof of spay or neuter and return of registration certificate.

I think your list of clearances are way short, elbows for example.

I don't give a guarantee, how can you guarantee a living animal will be free of defects, I will however work with a puppy buyer if something pops up by giving money back to help with medical expenses. I don't think many people require that you surrender the dog unless it's soon after you've acquired it.

How do you tell who's breeding to their own studs for good reason, you ask. Like someone said previously, you should get a specific answer ie. to improve tailset....

Like

I came across this years ago written by an AKC judge (now deceased) who bred German Shepherds
The Breeder . . . . . . .
A breed will stand or fall according to its breeders – not its loyal fanciers, not its judges and handlers, not its exhibitors and trainers. For the breeder is the only link between the past and the future, only through him can the breed stay alive.

Like the sculptor, the painter, the poet, he is driven by creative compulsion. But he, more than any of the others, is caught up in the race against time. The sculptor works in stone, his mistakes can be changed by the chisel. The breeder works in flesh, his mistakes may take generations to correct. The sculptor can put his work away and eventually come back to it, the breeder is a captive of his breed and can never really leave it.

Why then does a breeder stay a breeder? The answer is, that of all the activities in the dog sport, he alone has the joy of creation and the pride of enduring handiwork!

When proud owners bring back a fine animal for him to see years after it was sold by him as a puppy, he notes with a thrill how it has developed in just the way he thought it would. While they are happily telling him what a marvelous creature this is, he is scarcely listening as he stares at the dog, for he is not only seeing what they are, but so much more.

With mounting excitement, he watches that imperious stance, so familiar, that proudly arched neck and the keen steady gaze right out of the past, he does not see just ONE handsome dog standing there before him, but all the wonderful ones which went into the making of this one – dogs which he loved and knew so well . . . and now sees living again. This is the fascination of the breeder. This is the treasure of eternal youth!

Pssss, I don't think this breeder you describe even exists. I'm guessing that your point is that there is no "good breeders" and everybody would fall into the "non reputable breeder" bucket.

When you try to define a breeder by some set of arbitrary rules, you are doing the exact same thing the anti-breeder legislators and the PETA-type activists are doing. A good breeder's lifetime achievements will not be how many trophies are on their mantle; it won't even be in how many generations of healthy dogs they have produced. A good breeder may not even be known in his or her lifetime as such. It could be that person out in the sticks somewhere that gets to enough shows to get public acclamation for their accomplishments, but are little known to the powers that be in the world of dog breeding. It could also be that well-known breeder who has more than the two-three "mandated" litters a year, has their dogs out at every show venue they can reasonably get to, and their name sparks recognition in nearly everyone's eyes within that breed.

The mark of a good breeder actually comes years and many generations later when the dogs they have produced are still carrying the trademark traits of that line and the get produced for many generations are consistently hailed as fine examples of the breed. Future generations will prove their worthiness, not only in the public venues of that breed (conformation, agility, hunting, etc), but will also be known for whatever health problems they may be carrying (as we all know we can't get rid of them all in just a few generations, even with the best of intentions) as well as the health problems they can be used to prevent, so future breeders into those lines may make educated and wise choices.

I would much prefer to know that the breeder is known for the traits I characterized above and trust that their instincts, their foresight, and their integrity will prove themselves out over the years; than to hope that someone who follows an arbitrary set of rules (at least publicly) will actually ever produce a reliable long term goal of healthy dogs that meet the standard of their breed. In the first case, the breeder is breeding towards a stated (whether privately or publicly) goal and in the second case, that person is breeding for the moment.

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Pssss, I don't think this breeder you describe even exists. I'm guessing that your point is that there is no "good breeders" and everybody would fall into the "non reputable breeder" bucket. [/quote]

Really? Is it so difficult to meet that criteria? My personal criteria is even more stringent! More tests such as Elbows and EIC, a certain look and size. Keeping them for longer than 8 weeks, teaching some basic skills.

You could well be right! I believe that they DO exist, it's just too difficult to find them when they have a litter planned/available. They are probably too exhausted to go through all that more than twice a year {LOL}.

Don't nitpick the words and it won't upset you. :) I know what you are saying, but to me that wording really means to do no detriment to the breed. Maybe we should word it that way. I think when people say it, they mean that as long as they are trying to use the clearances properly to produce pups that can be as sound as possible...

I think that list is a good "general guideline" and if a breeder strays off that list, it's a good talking point when you are interviewing someone. Like "never uses own stud" but perhaps they bought a stud to complement their bitch lines, or they worked hard and have a CH Stud in their house. GUIDELINES. And then you make the best possible decision. Even like Newspaper ads. Why not use them as long as you screen properly. It's just another means to market.

I think I meet those standards. They are not that tough to meet really. If you are traveling to dog shows, who really wants more than two litters a year, its way too much work and you are stuck at home with them ! If you own too many dogs, than you don't have a life, they quickly become unmanageable, and you can't even get a vacation with your spouse. And then burn out is inevitable. I don't think anyone starts out to be a lousy breeder, I think things start to go south because of burn out, like any other profession .

There are things there that don't scream "good breed".
Breeding to its own studs? what if the stud at home is what they want to use in their female because they are developing their own line?
Breeding only 2 litters a year? some people can't even manage one litter a year. Some people can manage and has enough homes for 6 litters/year. That is a personal choice based on how much time and energy the breeder has.
Clearances? I do far more than that.
Your list has good things, but not all applies to all breeders.

This kind of thread drives me nuts. Think about it. There are many "good" music groups of many different genres. If I ask you the name of a good group, you will tell me one that most pleases your ear. Someone else will have a different preference. That does not make either choice good or bad.

Picking nits and calling people whose views are different from yours bad is useless. We need to think of more useful and beneficial things as we look forward to the new year.

Please reread what I wrote.

I am not referring to returning puppies due to guarantees or specific health problems.

I am referring to those who are willing to take a puppy back when, for any reason, the buyer cannot or does not want to keep it, so that the dog they brought into this world does not have to go to the pound or into rescue.

In my opinion, Good Breeders come in many ways. I consider myself a good breeder, as I do a lot of my fellow breeder friends. But we do things differently.

For myself, I breed MAYBE one litter a year, more like every two years. I only breed to keep a dog myself, not to just sell puppies (though I do love raising puppies!) and I only have a few dogs. I do this because the quality of the relationship I have with my own dogs is very important to me and I don't want it to suffer. I can only show, train, and work with so many dogs. All of my breeding stock has Hips, Elbows, Eyes, PRA, EIC, Heart, and CNM clearances. I am an ambassador to my breed; I am there to help educate others about Labradors, even if they don't buy a pup from me. I am there for the life of my puppies and very thorough with whom they are placed. I will take them back, if needed. I am dedicated to Labradors; I aim to not do any harm to the breed through my actions and to maintain them as Labradors, not following the trends. If I never become one of the "big kennels", so be it. But I hope the legacy I leave will be one of healthy, sound, loved dogs who carry this marvelous breed into the future. I think the most important factor in a "good breeder" is a passion for Labradors and having THEIR best interest at heart, not one's ego.

My friends may have more dogs, breed more litters, not compete in as many events, house their dogs differently, etc. but I don't think it makes them a "bad breeder". They may not work, have more money, land, time, etc. than I do and there for can operate at a different capacity. The term "good breeder" is an umbrella term without one definition.

I will often look at other breeders of other breeds for people to see if any red flags go off. Red flags are kind hard to see too, you just know them when you see them.

This all sounds good and I try to follow many of these practices as closely as I can and then some. Let's think about that one saying "unless you walk in my shoes". Look at it from a breeder's point of view and yes one who is trying to better the breed as you call it. Then after 10 years of doing the best that you can working to improve on breeding stock that you managed to get from "other" longer time breeders because we all have to start someplace and dogs aren't grown from seeds in the yard. Then see if you can fulfill all of these expectations you have put into your criteria for a good breeder.

Many of the issues that come up are not the breeder's fault. We work with what we have in these dogs and then once you start breeding into some of these lines there is this problem with this one and that problem with the other one and oh and then we can't use this dog because of this and did you test your bitch for EIC because the stud dog is a carrier, but the stud owner didn't tell you he was and so on. Do you get the idea? It is not as easy as it looks from the puppy owner buyer's eyes.

When you make the statement about a breeder using their own studs, I think you need to think into it a little further. I do understand their are breeders who get a male or breed a male and keep them and start breeding them at 11 months to every female they have just to sell puppies. However, a breeder can be a "good breeder" and still use their own studs. With my boys, I know exactly that they have all of their clearances done and their is no guessing. I know their temperament and what they are producing. The boys I have bred and kept I have because I want to have their pedigree in the development of my own lines that I am working towards and because they are a betterment towards the breed. I show my dogs and most of my males are champions. How do you think a stud dog becomes a stud dog? We need to use our own studs to prove them and that is what creates the interest of another breeder to use them thus becoming an outside stud at the same time as the breeder using them. Interestingly enough when I do a breeding with one of my own boys, I have more puppy buyers interested in that breeding over when I breed to an outside stud. It seems that they find comfort in knowing that they get to meet the dog who is the sire of the litter.

From Huh? "I am referring to those who are willing to take a puppy back when, for any reason, the buyer cannot or does not want to keep it, so that the dog they brought into this world does not have to go to the pound or into rescue."

This is absolutely key. I don't care if someone breeds once every other year, if they allow their pet pups to end up in shelters, they are NOT a good breeder, period.

Some really nice responses above. Just want to encourage all to think through the "no more than 2 litters a year" mentality. Some well known kennels which treat their dogs and litters very well are into dogs full time. They hire people to play with and socialize pups.

I stewarded an obedience ring awhile ago. A dog which looked like his well known sire was next up, so I talked to the owner verifying he was sired by this well known male. Owner had purchased the dog for performance from a breeder which only had 1 litter a year. She told me the dog had never touched grass or went outside before going home. He was gorgeous but slightly shy and very hesitant according to her of new sights, sites, sounds, surfaces, people, etc. All in all he as not nearly as well rounded as two dogs which I know of that come from a higher volume breeder - those dogs play with children, meet elderly, run outside, travel, etc. with their breeder and family.

So given the above, do you really choose a breeder based on litter numbers? Sometimes breeders with more experience from having more litters do a better job if the dogs and pups are their priority.

Would you want your home built by a builder who only did one home a year, or one who was very experienced and built several nice homes a year? I understand the 2 litters or less mentality (I myself have never done more than 2 litters in a given year) but does it really make a difference for the puppy buyer?

I absolutely agree. It's another reason for somebody to chose a purebred dog over a rescue. It is a comfort for older owners or people with no family or friends who would take their dogs should something unforseen happen, and to know that the dog will not end up in a shelter.

I think that what you say is probably the exception, although it's great to hear that some high-volume kennels do care enough to hire people to help.

The whole idea of getting a dog from a low-volume breeder is that more care goes into socializing those pups at an early age inside a home.

Thank you Breeder2 and all the others who have pointed this out to me.

[/quote]

When you make the statement about a breeder using their own studs, I think you need to think into it a little further. I do understand their are breeders who get a male or breed a male and keep them and start breeding them at 11 months to every female they have just to sell puppies. However, a breeder can be a "good breeder" and still use their own studs. With my boys, I know exactly that they have all of their clearances done and their is no guessing. I know their temperament and what they are producing. The boys I have bred and kept I have because I want to have their pedigree in the development of my own lines that I am working towards and because they are a betterment towards the breed. I show my dogs and most of my males are champions. How do you think a stud dog becomes a stud dog? We need to use our own studs to prove them and that is what creates the interest of another breeder to use them thus becoming an outside stud at the same time as the breeder using them. Interestingly enough when I do a breeding with one of my own boys, I have more puppy buyers interested in that breeding over when I breed to an outside stud. It seems that they find comfort in knowing that they get to meet the dog who is the sire of the litter.

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I guess not.

All my dogs do not live in my house.
I do use my own stud dogs sometimes.
My web site needs updating and I wait for my friend who does it for me.
I do not check hearts.

I do have one or two litters a year.
I do check hips, elbows and eyes.
I do use outside stud dogs when necessary.
I do sell on S/N to pet owners.
If I happen to have a litter at Christmastime, I decide on an individual basis as to whether a puppy can go to it's new home before or after the holidays.
I do not advertise at all but there's nothing wrong with a newspaper ad. What's wrong is if you don't thoroughly interview the caller.

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What's wrong is if you don't thoroughly interview the caller.[/quote]

If you don't, how do you know that your pup is going to a good home?

I have to be honest here. I breed only 1-2 litters a year right now, may some day do more. However, a friend breeds 4-5 litters a year. They, and others similar which I know of, do a much better job of raising pups than others I know of with only 1 or 2 litters a year.

The higher volume friend is really into the puppies as is their whole family.
The pups in some of the 4-5 litters per year(Not 10-12 litters) kennels really put a lot into the whole breeding/raising. Some 1-2 litter per year breeders only want a pup to show and could care less about proper puppy raising/socialization.

What's wrong is if you don't thoroughly interview the caller.[/quote]

If you don't, how do you know that your pup is going to a good home?

[/quote]

I believe that's what I said ........ thoroughly interview the caller .......... whether from a cold call, a referral or a newspaper ad.

If you don't, how do you know that your pup is going to a good home?

[/quote]

I believe that's what I said ........ thoroughly interview the caller .......... whether from a cold call, a referral or a newspaper ad.[/quote]

So sorry. I missed that little "is".

I very rarely respond to things written on the Forum, however, the original post of what makes a "good breeder" really bothered me. Pet people read this forum and an anonymous poster has posted a list of what he/she feels is a good breeder. Well cross me off the nice list and put me on the naughty side because one of my girls, like clockwork, cycles in August and then again in February. I chose to breed her in August because if I wait until February, then I miss going to all the spring shows (including Potomac). So if you do the math - breeding in August means the puppies will be born in Ocotober and ready to go in December. Christmas puppies - what a horror. I found wonderful homes for my puppies, homes that I would sell a puppy to no matter what time of year it was.
Now let us get to the "only breeds one or two litters a year" statement. Well here I go again, I guess I really deserve coal in my stocking. I'm going to have 3 litters this year. Trying new things and keeping puppies from different breedings helps a breeder to learn what works & what doesn't. It is a learning experience on many different levels and in the end helps a breeder become a better breeder. I'm curious, what happens if you have your one alloted litter (or even two) and that puppy doesn't work out? You have to start over again next year? Sorry, but your list is hog wash. There are people that comply with everything on your list and that still doesn't make them a good breeder.

Sigh. These were just some ideas for things to look out for to have the best chance of finding a good, caring breeder and not a puppy mill. Your Christmas puppy timing is unfortunate. You are lucky to find homes that are not in turmoil over the holidays. No short tempers, no ornaments or greasy turkey to accidentally get into, and no puppies being bought as "surprises" for somebody who didn't want a puppy in the first place. Guess it would be too much trouble to hang on to them for a few extra days......

I held on to my puppies whenever the families wanted. (No puppies left on Chrismas day) It's not "too much trouble" to me. You don't know what day any of my puppies left and must not know anything about me to post your "too much trouble" comment.

Exactly! Christmas puppies, by definition go home in time for Christmas rather than being held a few more days until all the tumult and shouting had died down......

You are right, I don't know anything about you.

Christmas puppies are puppies that go to a new home during the Christmas season. Again, I didn't say what day they left, except that none of them went home on Christmas day. Many people have a quiet Christmas with just the family. So according to your rule - puppies can't go to a new home for any Holdiay or birthday, etc. I'm not arguing with you any more - I said my peace. I knew this was a mistake to reply to an anonymous person, however, I wanted you to realize that not everything is so cut and dry and that people don't fit into "lists". Have a great day.

I don't think this "PUPPY BUYER" poster is a puppy buyer at all. I think this person is a Very Novice, bitter , new to the game breeder , that is under the impression that this list will set her/him Above the fray, seasoned breeders completely understand what this list is all about , and who it is focused to reach .
This "list" is age old, older than dirt actually. It no longer fits, and is only used by novice types that have been in this breed for about 15minutes. This forum has been abandoned by seasoned breeders, and has become the forum for the Blind leading the Blind !
Sharon C. is a respected breeder, I for one take offense to this Novice persons attitude and disrespect, shame on her/him , something he/she will soon learn, reputation is everything.

Who are you to judge someone else's timing as being "unfortunate". Who are you to judge anything. I was in agreement with so much of what you were saying until this! I guess I'm a bad breeder too because I have had litters that just so happen to be 8 weeks of age around the holidays. Some families I would gladly release a puppy to because their life style isn't any different. Others I happily hold on to the puppy until the festivities are over but to say timing is "unfortunate"....

I agree, I doubt you are a puppy buyer because I know how many many many RESPONSIBLE puppy buyers feel and what they say and never would they say that. They are not as judgmental. There is a list of what makes a good breeder you are right about that, and timing of a litter, how many litters a year... sorry that's not even part of it.

Sigh is right puppy buyer. You the saying let the buyer beware, some will search out a good breeder with whom they get along with and trust and feel comfortable with purchasing a dog from. Others will see a cute face in a pet store or at a shelter and buy it from that source. There is not one single study or statistic that I've read that shows that a dog obtained from one source is any less healthier or has any less temperament issues than those purchased from a small in-home breeder-with the exception of temperament/behavioral issues from dogs adopted from a shelter setting.

I don't understand the need for someone to jump on here feeling all high and mighty because they bought dogs from someone they feel is a good breeder. A good breeder is not defined by numbers or someone's attempt to set restrictions and regulations. Lord knows we have too many Animal Rights freaks out there already trying to do that. AKC opposing any legislation that seeks to limit numbers.

Again, you want to stereotype those who do not fit your criteria or base your conclusions on one or two breeders you've "heard" of. Most commercial kennels are clean and well-run. How does that fit in your stereotype? Some are even doing OFAs now. My my. But you continue to use your vigilante hate slur to blanket and scapegoat them all. This is the language the ARs use pass their legislation to restrict all breeders. The more you regulate and restrict the less good breeders there will be out there and then what?

From the words of the AR Terrorist: "You greeders must all stop breeding. There is no such thing as a good breeder. We've heard all your lame excuses for breeding and bottom line you are all nothing but money hungry selfish people. Don't you know that for every puppy you bring into this world, another one must die in the shelter? Don't shop, adopt".

Yes, we all know that is false logic, but trust me, they've heard all our nonsense about how we don't make money how we take back, yada yada yada. That is their mindset and they are highly driven to stop all breeding. So the next time you think a bill is great because it uses that derogatory term, think again, because to them we are all that type of breeder. The sad thing is we use it against ourselves and just reinforce the images we see in the photos that are spread far and wide in an attempt to get an emotional response out of the viewer and allow them to be emotionally manipulated by them. The public is beginning to view all breeders as evil. What we need to do is stop focusing on someone else's criteria and promote our wonderful purebreds and dogs and let others know why they should purchase a dog from us. Yes, folks, that's marketing. The AR's are marketing their shelter dogs now we need to be marketing our purebreds and promoting them just as much. We've been shamed too often in the media and the public is being brainwashed by the don't shop, adopt or don't buy while others die mantra.

Good breeders come in all shapes and sizes. Let's seek out those who do and celebrate our dogs and our breeders!

Sharon you are spot on. I hate this type of mentality-judging breeders. Like this person knows anything about how you breed, your dogs, etc. You don't have to explain yourself except to make him/her look stupid. This type of person think they know it all, not even being a breeder, yet telling all us breeders how to breed? Gee, that sounds a bit like the HSUS. Advising states on agriculture practices without being farmers themselves. And yes, trying to pass restrictive legislation against all breeders without having any knowledge of breeding. He/she is jumping to conclusions based on the brainwashing they've received. Christmas puppies-ooo bad! Did you know that many shelters that are in the business of selling puppies from other states/countries delivered them to new homes on Christmas day? I've sold a few puppies over the years to people who wanted their pup at 8 weeks old and were having a nice quiet Christmas. Oh am I bad now? Did you know those dog lived out their entire lives with those families? Wait you breed more than one or two litters a year? How can one go to shows and be proving their dogs you say? Well, let's see, they make money (oops darn there's that word) from selling good quality pets and hire people to show their dogs and help take care of their dogs. Did you ever think of that? If a vet, handler, trainer, kennel help can make money doing something they love, why is it automatically wrong or bad if a breeder should make money doing something they love?

Puppy buyer you need to open your eyes and your mind. There is no one size fits all when it comes to breeding. Never say never. Their dogs aren't suffering, except maybe in your mind.

"Doesn't breed to her own males"? What a crazy statement! Do you know how many Old Timers have the best stud dogs around and are using mostly them as they know what they want and what they will get. It took me many generations to get a couple nice males and know the lines in and out and if they are Optigen B's no one wants to use them except a few in the know. Then you use them on your Optigen A girls to keep your own line going with excellent clearances and temperment. There are many Honest and Great Breeders who use their own males again and again if need be with a certain female.

Not only is Sharon a good person and a highly reputable breeder and judge, her post proves she has personal integrity and class. Everyone should display the same sort of grace that she has shown in her response.

Well said, Sharon. Actually, I'm surprised no one has said anything about Puppy Buyer being a troll of sorts, figuratively saying "Let's you and him fight". Not using your own stud dogs? Well, that let's out just about anyone who is a legend in the breed. Some of those other points I've at least heard before - where did this one come from? Oh - and thanks for being the first one (I believe) in this discussion to use their own name.

That totally nails it!
There is a difference between a real "Breeder" and a puppy maker. This is what a real breeder is. They have a passion and obsession to create true beauty.

A puppy raiser will have one or two litters a year and sell them off to pet homes and do it again because they like puppies.

Then there is the collector who buys helter skelter to try to be an instant breeder without taking the time and work to learn.

Good pets can be purchased from all levels of breeders.

Greg. I'm surprised people haven't heard the stud dog thing before. I believe most of what I wrote came from the old Cindy Tittle Moore stuff about Labradors which, to reiterate, is advice to help a puppy buyer to find a breeder who isn't a puppy mill. Maybe I should have said that I would prefer to get a puppy from a "hobby" breeder. Would that make people feel better?

Thankfully, there ARE some breeders here who fit into the category I mentioned. Perhaps they want to use one of their own males once in a while to do a line breeding, but I don't know enough to discuss the subject.

I've noticed that any time somebody takes offense to something, the originator is called a troll.

I posted twice and, when it became apparent that my posts were not contributing to the conversation, decided not to post again. But I, as I so often do, am going to ignore my own advice and post again.

Why do we need to put people in boxes? Why do we strive so hard to define what group or category someone else belongs in, based on arbitrary lists of rules? Whether you are categorizing a dog breeder, a political persuasion, a religion, a skin color, a sex, or even a sexual preference - are we not all unique persons?

Decide whether or not to purchase a puppy from a certain breeder, or use their stud dog, based on certain criteria that meets your goals and standards. But don't try to apply that same private criteria across the board and name those that fit a "good breeder" and those that don't "bad breeders". When you do that, you fall into the good graces of those who want all breeders to go away. You are using your own criteria to put those not like you "out of business". As desirable as your own criteria may at first appear, it is still just a way of decrying those who don't agree with you and of belittling their efforts, their beliefs, and their experience.

When I buy a puppy, I look for the breeder who shows ethical, honest behaviour in the rest of their life. Then, if I like what I see in their breeding program and that puppy in question, I buy it. Same with stud service. I look first to the person with whom I'm dealing and decide whether this is someone I can trust. If not, I find another stud dog.

It is only when I have not followed that practice that I have found myself embroiled in a disagreeable arrangement. I have purchased a puppy from a breeder who appeared to follow all of the above rules and found out later that the breeder had misrepresented several important facts about the genetics of that breeding. I have purchased stud service from a little known breeder with a very nice dog that was not as actively campaigned as some of the stud dogs that are so well known, and, because I already knew her to be a person of honesty and integrity, it was a transaction that we both felt good about. Yes, there were problems, but we both worked together to resolve them.

Look first to the person with whom you are doing business; if they are honest, ethical people in their lives, they will be honest and ethical in their breeding practices. But don't try to put people in a box; invariably that will backfire and you will be one of the ones in someone's box.

I agree that everyone's standards are different and need to do what is best for them. I have breeding standards and goals that I strive for and I will only refer to those breeders who meet the same standards. I also have standards for puppy homes that may differ from what other people expect. I think we all try to do what is best for the puppies given our own criteria.

It is up to puppy buyers to educate themselves and ask enough questions to get comfortable with the breeders they are considering. If the breeder makes no time for your questions or cannot/will not provide the info they are seeking, that is their first clue that maybe it is time to move on. I would recommend visiting the breeder's premises prior to bringing home a puppy (and the breeder will probably want to know just as much about your living conditions) to make sure this is a good environment for them.

If a puppy buyer is unsure of what things to consider, many of the local Labrador clubs have information on their web sites regarding the breed and what to look for when looking for a puppy. The Orthopedic Foundation for Animals has information on various disorders and the evaluations of breeding stock that are done for these disorders. Browse many breeder web sites - what clearances are being done? Research them (Google is your friend) and determine what you as a puppy buyer can live with and what you cannot - what do you expect in the way of minimal clearances? Can you live with a puppy bred from parents that are younger than 2 and have only preliminary hip/elbow evaluations (as opposed to clearances)? Can you live with not knowing whether the sire/dam is affected with TVD or EIC? Do you want a puppy out of parents that are proven in the field? The breeders will be screening you as well and it is a two way street.

What I have found is many puppy buyers get too caught up in the excitement of bringing home a puppy and they flock to the litters that are available RIGHT NOW, or the least expensive puppies they can find. Sometimes the best things come to those who are willing to do their homework and then wait.

Puppy buyer sounds like a poster from the pet board. He occasionally mentions this forum over there and likes to stir the pot.

That's excellent!

What is the pet board?

Is there a reason why we can't discuss the ideas presented (if we agree or disagree and why) without attacking the person who presented them?

You and me both. It doesn't seem that "Puppy Buyer" really cares or wants to know what the ramifications will be if we start restricting numbers and making up arbitrary rules about what constitutes a good breeder. Or maybe this type of trolling post is his/her way of just trying to further divide breeders and turn each other against one another.

It is one thing for people who want a well-bred dog to be educated, but not at the expense of bashing other breeders that may not fit into that proverbial box as you put it. Emphasize and promote your dogs in a positive way. But remember not everyone cares about purchasing a show quality animal. To many folks, that cute little ball of fluff at the pet store that they can purchase with no strings, no questions and make payments on, is perfectly ok. And most of the time, just as when you purchase from a private breeder, your puppy turns out just fine. All this non-sense about not being properly socialized, etc is hog wash. A dog that is going to have a stellar temperament will not be shy if the people who purchase it at 8 weeks take it out and socialize it. In fact most pet stores I've been in, the puppies there are quite happy and out going.

Puppy Buyer just sounds like a brainwashed idiot that is spewing out stuff he/she has no idea about. As a long time breeder myself, I was brainwashed too. I thought only people who bred as I did should be allowed to breed. Then I looked at the whole picture and have seen a scary trend by the animal rights movement. They use the same terms, brainwashing, etc to turn the public against all breeding. This is why it is so easy in some states and areas where people don't have a clue about what real dog breeders do get very bad laws enacted. It's not easy to change, but once you get the idea that others can do a good job raising their dogs and enjoy what they do, then you start to change your mind.

I can see why someone might want to have a list of general rules.

If one were to do this, I would definitely include the rule of taking a dog back at any time for any reason. A good breeder is responsible from womb to grave.

Lots of people follow these same "rules". The thing is, if I were making a list of general rules, mine would be longer. I also know many good breeders who do not follow all the rules in this particular list. As long as they are considered general rules, this list is a good start.

Puppy Buyer has been pretty nasty in some of her responses and doesn't like it when people disagree with her (or him).

Do you have any idea how dumb that makes you look?

For puppy buyers, I would also recommend VERIFYING clearances if they are important to you. I have actually seen on web sites that OFA is used for prelims and PennHIP is done for finals. PennHIP DOES NOT certify elbows, which would mean there would be no elbow clearance under this method, only a prelim evaluation, if it truly exists - no way to verify unless you actually see the paperwork. I have also seen these "clearances" listed as PennHIP = Good, which is impossible since this is not how PennHIP rates hips. Ask to see the certificates and make sure they look like certificates issued by those organizations. If a clearance was done, no matter what the clearance, there should be a certificate/documentation that should be provided to you when asked. Or they can refer you to sites like OFA, which will list valid clearances if breeders choose to submit them. If not, MOVE ON! It can be frustrating when breeders play games, but it is relatively easy to check so why not do so? If it does not matter to you, then no worries.

Thanks Verify,

I would hope that a breeder would be happy to show off the certificates/proofs of clearances when they have gone to all the trouble to get them done. OFA results can also be checked on-line and some breeders post the certs/info on their web pages.

I do everything on your list and take a puppy back at any age. Old age is fine. Things do come up. Two litters a year is more than enough to have something to show or train. I think you ruffled a few feathers of some who are in it for the money. Just saying. Someone needs to re-read Advance Labrador Breeding. You don't need that many dogs or that many litters to have very nice Labradors. They think they are fooling someone.

WOW! I'm going to respond again (with my own name) - a mistake, I know, but here goes. In it for the money? I would LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE to make some money doing this. Everyone else on the planet gets paid for work that they do. With vet fees going up, food prices going up, electricity, and so on and so on, I would love to know how to make money doing this. Please give me the recipe for that - my husband & I will not be able to thank you enough. Having a litter is very expensive. Going to do shows is very expensive. Everything about this hobby is EXPENSIVE.
By the way, I have in my contract that if a buyer cannont keep a dog for any reason, it is to come back to me. I have been responsible for every dog that I have ever bred. There are many wonderful breeders that do not fit into that list. I don't think any of us are trying to "fool" anyone. I am so surprised at some of these "breeder" responses. You should be sticking up for your fellow labrador breeder not tearing them down because some person wrote a list of how they think your breeding practices should be. If you fit in that list, great, but don's say that the rest of us are trying to fool someone. If you want to respond - go for it. I'd appreciate it if you would use your own name. It's pretty cowardly to attack people and not use your name.

There are no rules to being a good breeder. The minute you start making requirements is the minute you will end up breeding a generic street dog. Every one of those rules posted can and will be broken by any number of good breeders because after years and years of whelping litters, watching them grow, showing and judging them they know that you can't breed successfully by following a list of "rules." There are exceptions every day. There are exceptions with every breeding. There are exceptions with every litter raised.

I am going to say this again :

CLEARANCES ARE TOOLS, NOT DISQUALIFICATIONS.

Sure, but if they are not being done, they are not tools either. Also, different people have different levels of risk they are willing to take (for example, I am not willing to breed a 10 month old puppy dog on prelims, no matter how nice I think he is at the time-if he is THAT nice, he will be just as nice after he has met my minimum standards in health, field ability, conformation,etc. Other breeders breed their young boys regularly). Puppy buyers are no different. It is their right to find a breeder that meets their own personal standards. If a breeder does not meet their criteria, it does not mean the breeder is not a good one, just not the right one for that particular puppy buyer. Breeders who screen their puppy buyers are doing the same thing - some will not sell to single people or renters; others will. I do not have a problem with people who have a list of set criteria - it is their investment of time and money and it should be their decision. Whether or not the rest of us agree with a particular list is irrelevant.

Exactly

a good breeder is someone who also socializes their pups before ten weeks of age and doesn't keep back pups to grow out in a kennel situation without socializing those pups to outside environments

Just imagine if...

Sandylands had never bred any of their boys to their girls
Mansergh had never bred any of their boys to their girls
Rocheby had never bred any of their boys to their girls
Beechcroft had never bred any of their boys to their girls
Dickendall had never bred any of their girls to Arnold
Borador had never bred any of their girls to Gordy
Hyspire had never bred any of their girls to Travis
The list goes on and on and on...
I know I'm missing many significant kennels with very important males in the history of the breed. I guess that's my point.

We have moved the breed forward because some important dogs were breed to bitches owned by the same person. The statement is uninformed, made by someone who is uneducated in the history of the breed, and quite ridiculous when you think about it.

Happy New Year! The forum (which I happen to love reading) gets off to another year of more of the same...by people demonstrate their lack of experience and knowledge with generalizations.

I'm a newbie, but I'm not stupid.

Where's the LIKE button ~ the last post was the BEST ![ yes you left out many great kennel names, but you still made your point]

There are some excellent small business management courses you can take if learning to run any operation for financial success is your goal. There are also courses which help people learn how to turn their hobby into a successful business, but that usually requires a drastic, non-sentimental overhaul of allocation of time and expense investment practices. Good luck.