Hoping for an educational discussion here....

If you had a pure yellow (Y) and found a dog that was pure chocolate (Cc) (or vice versa), what's the problem with doing that breeding? (other than potential pigment issues-see below)

All puppies would be BYC. You then take that pup to a BB or BY or Y. Heck you can even go to a pure chocolate again.

Especially if you have good pigment on yellows behind both lines.

Or is the offspring that is Cy the issue or Yc? Or is it just yellows with light pigments? Or are Cy coat colors off? No possibilities for dudleys with any of the above breedings.

Looking for some help from some longer time breeders that have done this or seen results.

I'm having a hard time throwing out a dog because he's chocolate.

I have been discussing this with some others, including long time breeders, and it was suggested I post here to see others results or experiences.

Private emails are fine.

Sue Puff

I personally believe that bad pigment on yellows that carry chocolate is purely coincidental to the fact they carry chocolate. I've seen plenty of bad pigment on yellows that don't carry chocolate - there's no reason to automatically assume a yellow with bad pigment carries chocolate. FWIW - I currently have a yellow girl who carries chocolate who has jet-black pigment, out of a Byc stud dog. I see absolutely no reason to pass on a chocolate boy if he's got everything you need - there are far more dangerous things out there than a yellow carrying chocolate or chocolate carrying yellow!

I think the stigma of breeding to Chocolates is over. Pick the best dog for your bitch, forget the color. With color testing nowadays, you can find out what your new pups carry. And if you do get a NBP pup, the worst thing that would happen is that it's the pick of the litter...but you'll sell those to pet familes faster than anything.

I love this post... very good information for me! Thank you!

There's a difference between "bad" pigment as discussed here, and liver pigment in yellows. I think the liver pigment looks hideous on a yellow, but its not a health issue so its still a nice pet.

Having said that...... isn't this breeding what Jean Louis did that produced Cornelius? What a nice boy he was!

So how many stud owners would be willing to have their stud bred in a breeding like this?

Cornelius was a Yc sire bred to a CC dam. He was BYC.

Finding stud dog owners to do the breeding is not the issue.

I just want to see what others have done. There is still a feeling that this combo should not be done because of pigment.

I argue that if you have good pigment on both sides in the yellows, you can manage it or manage around it, see above for ways to get around it. You can avoid breedings that produce NBP.

What I would like to know is how true the pigment holds when you get to one or two generations down?

I'm inclined to not throw away a good chocolate dog. To me color is easily managed. I agree with what others said above.

I would like to see what others have done, seen or experienced.

Sue Puff

You only have to look on here to see that there are MANY out there that don't understand color genetics, and we have easy as a breed!! Coat color doesn't dictate pigment intensity.

I bred a By bitch to a Yc dog and held back two yellow puppies. I color tested them and the puppy with poor nose pigment is Yy and the puppy with a jet black nose, black belly and nails is Yc.... it's the middle of a cold winter and it's still the case.

I don't have a Cc boy, but I do have a Cy stud dog who's been bred to two Yy bitches, the yellow puppies have had excellent pigment. The pigment his Byc sire produced was very bitch dependent.

Breed to the boy you like :)

I did this 32 years ago and still have the rears and head that I was trying for. I have an awesome chocolate out of a YC who I bred my BYC to. Just have to know that NBP are possible later down the road. I had people fighting over a NBP pup in a chocolate to chocolate litter. She was the only yellow as we didn't know that the male carried yellow. I knew the female did. So if the boy has what your girl needs go for it.

Its all hogwash. Breed to whatever color stud dog you need to breed to to compliment your bitch, and don't worry about something as petty as pigment.

A website link to this boy Cornelius? Would like to see what you are talking about. Funny how some post just one name and I have no clue. Well except Arnold. I think all know who Arnold was! :)

Here is a link to Cornelius

http://chablais.ca/Cornelius.htm

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the input!

Happy New Year!

Sue Puff