Disturbing trend noted. Straight rears. Where is the beautiful turn of stifle we used to consistently have in Labradors? Especially in chocolates.

Great rears were not always there on chocolates. Some had to much and hocked looking or none, alot none. Chocolates are just now coming in to their own. More great rears are being seen. But they have to be balanced. Any color. Plenty of other colors missing fronts now. Years go by and things go back and forth. Stick around. Also, look at family history at what that dog might throw. Hopefully better than himself.

turn of stifle wasn't always there on any color, years ago. Look back at the dogs from the 80's! The turn has evolved, will be interested to see the next generation of labradors will look like, in all colors!

I agree, Old Timer.

And interestingly we are seeing a lot more cruciate problems in our breed. While people often say that a straight stifle is more a risk for it than ample or greater, that's not been my experience in dogs I've seen with cruciate tears. The older dogs from the 90's which I had, (and looking back at show photos, by today's standards, lacked a great deal of turn of stifle) never had any issues whatsoever, nor did their kids or grandkids. This is something other Breeders and myself have been noticing/discussing lately.

Extremes either way are not ideal. Moderation is best in so many ways. Having said that; my first Lab, backyard bred, had the straightest stifles and he jumped 42" like it was nothing. He got a an AM/Can CDX and almost started competing for a UD when his back started to bother him(age 8 or 9), so I retired him. Never had one knee issue and never limped front or rear. He did however get spondylosis.

I suspect most of these chocolates are out of an often used sire who also throws a very light coat. I've seen many of them lately and actually have a rather straight girl out of him myself. However, I'm not sure it's such a huge concern. Most breeders with girls out of him are choosing good rears to breed to, several chocolate studs with great rears and several Bc with great rears that breeders are using to fix the issue in the next generation. Wait and see what the next group looks like, from what I see, it's going to be OK in the long run. I think breeders are aware of the issue. The boy which I think is throwing it from my experience and observation, has some great qualities he also throws like absolutely fantastic retrieve drive, nice head, fantastic tail, great topline, nice fronts, and the ultimate wonderful temperament. I've seen the poor rear fixed in one generation with several good breeders' pups.

Don't dare say, but have no idea what light color chocolate you are referring to. I can't even think of one. Or maybe I just don't breed to light ones anyway. But doubt one chocolate has mess up rears. They have never been there in chocolates up until the last few years. And it sure take more than one generation to get. A nice black with a rear can if he passes it on, add a better rear to some of the pups. Instead of placing so much blame on stud dogs, some need to know, you need a nice female to start. A stud can not carry the load. Some don't even pass on what they have that is good. Others just make wonderful copys of themselves with a nice female. Been breeding choc over 25 years so have some experience.

There is no doubt that I am hearing about more blown out knees than I ever did years ago. There is no doubt that rears are much more angulated than they were (although the OP might be observing a new trend).

I know a lot of people think that more turn of stifle should decrease knee injuries. I never really bought into that and the data does seem to supoort my doubts. BUT, correlation does not mean cause and effect.

I would love to read more people commenting on the turn of stifle to knee injury relationship. I would wonder what else might be causing it because even though I never accepted that straight stifles make knee injuries more likely, I don't think it is more angulated rears either. But, what else could it be?

In nearly 30 years of being in Labradors, I notice a great improvement in rears (and of course fronts). I think the rears today are far better than they were back then. Trends come and go and surely some of the more popular stud dogs don't always set or fix rears. When judging the dogs, it should always be based on the overall appearance of the dog and not just bits and pieces.

Chocolates have come a long way over the years mainly because dedicated breeders worked hard to bring the color up to par with the other two colors. For the longest time many breeders felt limited to using just chocolates in their breeding program, but found they just weren't getting what they wanted and brought in other lines from blacks and yellows. I am seeing some really lovely chocolates now, with the correct brown eyes that have beautiful strong rears. I think with DNA testing and better understanding of genetics, breeders who want to avoid producing no black pigmented yellows can do so if they wish. I really don't have a problem with any color combination.

As far as dogs that have had knee problems, in my limited experience, the dogs I knew with ligament tears were very straight in the stifle. IMO, there is more stress to the area by being so straight and that good turn of stifle allows for more give in the ligament acting sort of like a shock absorbor. However there are many breeds of dogs that are straight in stifle that do not have a higher incident of ligament tears by virtue of their conformation. Also some feel that there may be a hereditary factor too.

I think there is a lack of ligament and muscle strength involved with cruciate tears and also patella issues. When the patella does not stay seated(shallow) where it should that is a set up for knee issues as a whole. Bowed femurs are also going to place a significant amount of incorrect stress on a knee. Just my 2 cents.

I am very involved with the showing and training of Labradors and have been for 30 years. I know many folks that have had to deal with the problem. A number were finished Champions, every one I am aware of had lovely double thigh and perfect turn, more angle than less you could say. Because I am in a market with a well know breeder I have noticed that a number of Labs out of the Breeders pedigree have had not just unilateral but bilateral tears. Of course based on percentage of total dogs produced the percentage might not be remarkable as compared to others. My point is that as I think about all those I am aware of and I can't think of one that was straight in the rear. Please understand I hate straight rears I just don't believe they have a higher incidence of tears.

CCL tears are more complicated than turn of stifle. The rest of the knee structure must also be considered. Beyond structure, and perhaps more important, is the condition of the dog. I work in a vet's office. I see torn CCLs in small and large dogs, pure and mixed, and the common thread in most of them is that the dogs are overweight and lacking in muscle tone. Just as in humans, weekend warriors are at greater risk for these injuries than conditioned individuals who get regular exercise. Accidents happen, but in general, moderation and conditioning go a long way towards preventing these injuries. And as far as unilateral versus bilateral CCL tears, any dog that tears one CCL is at greater risk for tearing the second by virtue of increased strain during recovery from the initial injury.

I remember pretty much anything that won in the ring had nice 90 degree angles front and rear, now I see dogs winning with straight rears and people are using them at stud and their progeny also are straight. I don't want this trend to become the norm in labradors. The rears look like akita rears.

CRANIAL CRUCIATE LIGAMENT DISEASE -David F. Merkley DVM MS

Cranial cruciate ligament disease has become the most common orthopedic condition affecting the dog. Data is not available for cats but it is not uncommon in the feline species. This condition not only plagues the athletic working dog, but the family pet as well. Certain breeds have a very high incidence and recently a genetic predisposition has been suggested. Genetic implications of this disease are being researched. It has far surpassed hip dysplasia as a debilitating orthopedic condition and as a financial burden to pet owners.

Diagnosis of cruciate ligament injury with stifle instability is proving to be very complex. For years we have believed the only test for stifle cranial cruciate instability was the “drawer sign”. We now know that cruciate disease is not usually an acute event with rupture as it is in man (quadraped vs. biped). It is now believed to be the result of degenerative changes that occur over time. It appears that the development of instability it is more chronic in nature and with initial stretching to mild ligament fiber separation. It appears that ligament degeneration with histopathological changes within the ligament fibers precedes overt clinical signs of instability and joint discomfort.

That initial presentation of discomfort and lameness that we see with no “drawer sign” may just be a stretching of the ligament or a mild tear (fraying of fibers). This may respond to rest or antiinflammatory therapy. A repeat of discomfort often occurs that may or may not be responsive to conservative therapy again. The process has started from an early stretch to a partial and to an eventual complete tear. This degeneration and stretching eventually allows synovial fluid entrance into the ligament with inflammation. It can then progress to partial fiber separation and tearing long before an acute event occurs. During this long process stifle instability is present (even without a visible drawer sign). You cannot detect this instability with the drawer test. Synovial membrane attachments are torn and osteoarthritis is developing. Articular cartilage is under attack by this abnormal stifle movement. By the time you detect the “drawer sign” osteoarthritic changes can be evident and often can be severe.

Conformation issues (straight stifle and steep tibial plateau angle) are also mentioned as predisposing factors to cruciate ligament degeneration and rupture. Since these issues affect both joints is has become increasing clear that bilateral disease is the norm and the second leg often follows with similar discomfort and degeneration issues.

The classic history that is received today on the stifle injuries that are seen is chronic long term rear leg discomfort (lameness) that often responds to rest and/or anti-inflammatory treatment (initially). It is recurring and often frustrating to pin point the painful area. Radiographic evaluation of the stifle early is not contributory to the diagnosis of cruciate disease. Early joint changes are mild and not detectable on radiographs. As the changes in the joint progress from this early lameness (instability), changes do occur that are subtle but very contributory to a diagnosis. The body responses to this joint instability (though mild) by building a fibrous medial buttress around the medial collateral ligament. This is often palpable early but can be very subtle. It can be very mild and you must compare to the opposite “normal” joint. You also can often detect increased synovial fluid in the affected joint on the lateral stifle radiograph. Again you must compare to the “normal” unaffected side to detect slight differences. Early arthritic change (patellar spike) can often be seen. You should also compare drawer sign for differences between the affected and normal leg. Combining all of this information can give you a good probability that you are dealing with cruciate disease as the cause of the rear leg lameness or discomfort. Stifle thrust is usually only detectable with significant instability (severe partial or total tear). With longer standing issues muscle atrophy on the affected limb becomes apparent.

This all is complicated by the fact that chronic cruciate disease is often bilateral and the two legs may be at different stages in this degenerative process. They may both have issues with one being farther along and “more” clinical.

Medical therapy (rest, NSAIDs, and physical therapy) in these early stages does not halt this process. You mask signs of the instability but it is still present and is causing damage. We are beginning to recognize that early surgical intervention may be necessary to correct this instability and halt this osteoarthritic progression. Early surgical intervention increases the chances of saving the medial meniscus from damage.

http://www.veterinarysurgicalspecialists.com/positionpapers/cranialcruciateligamentdisease.pdf

You can find more scientific articles by searching for "Cruciate Ligament Disease". It's now believed that this is primarily a degenerative disease that may be caused by a gene mutation. The University of Minnesota is doing a study to find that link.