Is TVD a concern in the vast majority of today's pedigrees? I'm not trying to open a can of worms, just asking opinions. Last year I produced my first TVD puppy (who will be fine -- not a death sentence and no meds) yet I have four generations of cleared echoes behind the pup. Is TVD now like hip and elbow dysplasia where you do your best but there are no guarantees, even after years of passing clearances?

Second question: Are there any well used stud dogs who haven't produced TVD? Yes, I know the bitch is implicated too but if there's a clear stud line with generations of healthy hearts and no TVD, please let me know.

Please do not think I'm trying to start trouble; I'm genuinely concerned about where to go from here. I'm hoping someone has more knowledge than I do --- especially since a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I admit to having little knowledge about this.

Any help will be appreciated, but please do not post flames. I've been hesitating about posting because I know how volatile this list can get, and this situation is difficult enough without being raked over the coals. I'm not pointing fingers, nor do I want anyone else to. We're all in this together and the more we help one another, the better off our Labs will be.

I don't have any answers for you - I wish I did. But I do have words of respect for the way you put this post together. It's a lesson for the rest of us in humility and honesty without acrimony. Thanks, and I'll be watching for some meaningful dialogue.

I especially avoid pedigrees I think contain TVD producers, but have to assume it could still happen because of all we do not know about it. I don't think it is quite spread to the extent of hip and elbow dysplasia, yet, but that is just my opinion.

I have spent a great deal of time looking for dogs without suspected TVD carriers in the pedigree, and believe there are one or more TVD producers in almost every show bred pedigree today. When everyone uses a handful of stud dogs, their genes are spread far and wide, good and bad. It is becoming less and less possible to find pedigrees without suspected(by me, anyway) TVD producers in them. In ten years there may be none.

Those Echo clearances are only a snapshot in time to say the dog tested is not-affected. It does not mean the dog is a non-TVD carrier.

I think we are seeing more problems because of line breeding.

FWIW, the pup I produced is the result of an outcross.

I believe the consensus is still pointing to the mode of inheritance as dominant with incomplete penetrance. This means that it only takes one parent with the gene to produce it. Because it has incomplete penetration, the dog with the gene for it may not show any signs of the disease (passing an echo).

I also believe that this disease has been in the breed for a lot longer than we have been able to diagnose it. It was only through medical advancements that we have been able to find the problem and determine what was going on. We saw quite a few dogs in the early days (early 1990s) because we started looking for it. Even now, there is not a standard amount of regurgitation that the Cardiologists agree upon or whether a dog with a normal valve but a fair amount of regurgitation is TVD free.

We still look for it and though we've been testing our breeding stock for nearly 20 years now, it's still here. Until we get a DNA test, we will not see it go away anytime soon. The good news (if you want to call it that) is that TVD is not an instant death sentence. I have heard of many dogs diagnosed as moderate and even severe who have lived long, happy lives. It's just like anything else, you test for it and don't breed dogs that fail their echos. Keep track of the pedigrees and the puppies. Breeding is never black and white.
Hope this helps

We had TVD in a year old puppy year old girl several years ago. In trying to find answers and searching through both parents pedigrees and a cause for TVD I found a link to UC Davis that would supply the pedigrees of 10 or 11 dogs that seemed to produce the TVD. You did have to pay for the pedigrees.
I looked again before posting and the sites have been closed down. Someone must have the list or might pursue this through the heart clinic at U C Davis. This is something that should be public information.
Another thought would be to search through the OFA records for the disease.

Heart, it is a large concern for many Lab breeders, not for all.

Any bitch or dog used by us for breeding, always has an Echo Doppler. We do our girls at close to 2 years by a cardiologist and only use males with the same. The more generations surrounding those dogs and relatives right behind them that have echoes done, the less we worry.

There are only a few lines or dogs left that don't go back to the original TVD producers from the mid 1990's to our knowlege. Try not to see those lines close up or more then once the you might be using. Some breeders not only line breed them but we've seen them 3x 4x 5x or more in a 4 to 6 generation pedigree.

Our suggestion is to discuss the subject amongst friends within your club for example or other Lab breeders at Specialty shows. Be sure you feel comfortable with the breeders you're speaking to and they do with you.

Speak to Dr. Meg Sleeper at UPenn who is the only researcher we're aware of today. She gave us excellent tips about echoes and other personal information about where they are today in research and what they've found so far.

Do pedigree research or speak to breeders that do. Some have figured out more then most. Others plain don't care sadly. They want beautiful, winning dogs and if they have occasional pups with TVD they still breed the producer or close relatives. Others stop breeding those particular dogs and Kudos to them.

I hope these suggestions help you. There are some longer time breeders out there that do know what to stay away from and will share that information if you gain their trust.

I would add that you might not want to trust an echo done before 2. I bred to a well known stud who had an echo done at just under a year, and I was sorry...

I see hearts like hips and elbows. You can see if your dog has it (and some say color doppler is the ONLY way to go, echos are still wrong sometimes) but TVD can still show up. I think it's not as much of a death sentence as many make it seem though. I don't see alot of dogs dropping over at a young age. Most TVD dogs I have known about have lived longer lives that some that were supposely 100% healthy. It's probably been around in the general population for years, never being picked up by the general vets.

I have a dog with it too, will eventually do a second opinion on her. None of our regular vets never heard a murmur. Will keep her as I won't saddle a pet owner with this kind of problem. I think I have a dog in her pedigree pin-pointed, but I have friends with very similar lines all going back to that same dog, and their dogs have all passed echos. It's a crap shoot.

It might not have been the sire's fault...

"" There are only a few lines or dogs left that don't go back to the original TVD producers from the mid 1990's to our knowlege. Try not to see those lines close up or more then once the you might be using. Some breeders not only line breed them but we've seen them 3x 4x 5x or more in a 4 to 6 generation pedigree. ""


This is all well, fine and good to say, but for those of us new to the breed (and I say that with 13 years in). Not all of us live in an area that has a lot of Lab people in it, and it is hard to get a mentor in this breed. Without an oldtimer how do we find these lines out??? Everyone has the "stuck in the past, and it never happens to me" attitude, so unless you have an in with an oldtimer there is no way to know. This has been beaten over the head with a stick, heck with the stick... with a redwood tree. And yet, here we remain all locked up tight lipped instead of allowing those newer to the breed the same information to aid in breeding healthy dogs.

Why won't people share these names? I have a TVD bitch out of a big winning US stud dog, so I have first hand experience that I'd rather have not had, but no one shares.....

Here - here to Newbie, I had a similar thought. It can be difficult to admit something comes from your lines or someone else's lines, as I notice Newbie didn't mention her stud dog. It can be a sensitive area and no one likes to be singled out or feel blamed. Curiosity abounds, are these dogs in my lines. Where can one fine out this information, without raising hackles, when one does not have an "in" or a mentor. There is the OFA< CERF registry for other disorders - what of the non registered disorders? Thank you.

I contacted the breeder I bought her from and they were awesome to work through this with. I also contacted the stud dog owner and got absolutely nothing from her. If you gave me an email addy I would send you the names that I have been told to watch out for. The list that I have is relatively short, but can be built on while looking into your pedigrees.

Thank you

I'm interested in knowing too if you are willing. I am happy to share what I know. I lost an 8 week old puppy to TVD a couple of years ago and I have her littermate who also has TVD.

I also unfortunately produced a TVD puppy who sadly passed before he was 4 months old. Needless to say I want to try to avoid going through this again if at all possible. I would like to have any info that is out there that anyone is willing to share to help me make better breeding decisions in the future. TIA

I also produced a TVD puppy. He lived until he was 6. Thank you for offering to share this knowledge. Me too--something I never want to go through again.

Please send me your information, too, please. I have a friend who lost a lovely youngster to TVD and I want to avoid having to go through that heartbreak if I possibly can. Thank you for being honest.

Me too please

"I contacted the breeder I bought her from and they were awesome to work through this with. I also contacted the stud dog owner and got absolutely nothing from her. If you gave me an email addy I would send you the names that I have been told to watch out for. The list that I have is relatively short, but can be built on while looking into your pedigrees."

I would be interested in knowing your girl's pedigree. I have a TVD dog, and have been collecting pedigrees of other dogs with TVD ever since getting her. I am willing to share my dog's pedigree. My email address is below.

If you would be willing to share your information I would be forever grateful.

I am getting ready to do a breeding and want to be as cautious as possible what lines I am breeding to. I only have a litter every 2 to 3 years and so far I have not seen TVD thank God. I do as much pedigree research as I'm capable of and echo Doppler all of my dogs. Its all I can do without a test yet available.

Thank you for your kindness and assistance. I am sorry for all you both have been through.

while it looks like a dominate with incomplete penetrance disease, which means that it only takes one and while it also seems like that a dog can carry the disease and still have a clear echo, isn't it time that we do something, before it ruins our breed? maybe it is time to have a registry for this. We're going to get deeper and deeper into this disease if we don't do something soon.........makes our other diseases look fairly lame.........what a shame it is. it wasn't too long ago that there only seemed to be one dog out there who had it and produced it.......those of us who continue to breed dogs who produce this multiple times should hand their heads..........

I would appreciate an email too. Thanks for sharing your info.

I just came across this and would also like this information if possible. Thanks. The cloak-and-dagger nature of the breeding world is so depressing.

I would be grateful if you would also email me the short line you have. You are doing the labrador world a great service.

I would appreciate an email too. Thank you for your honesty and for sharing.

Please, send me the information. Has anyone received anything?

I asked and first they wanted names I could provide. I did not respond to that

No one ever gives out names. Maybe an anonymous pedigree would be better, post a pedigree with the dog's name blackened out, or if you must, leave out the sire and dam too. Not sharing information is not helping, anyone, yet the problems are getting more numerous. We know you can't be certain where it came from but can't we have a look at the pedigrees? The OP wants names and they won't open up either. , ridiculous.

Controlling TVD in Labradors
TVD is an inherited condition, making good breeding decisions is crucial in the fight to reduce the prevalence of TVD in Labrador Retrievers. Dogs that are affected should not be used for breeding. Future breedings of their sire and dam to each other also should not be repeated. Unfortunately, clinical signs of TVD often do not appear until after an afflicted dog is of breeding age, so owners may unknowingly breed a dog bearing the genetic marker for TVD.
The best way to avoid this is to have any Labrador that is being considered for breeding purposes screened for the condition by ultrasound (echocardiogram) performed by a veterinary cardiologist. Other ways to help reduce the incidence within the Labrador breed are by communicating with new owners about the condition and alerting owners of sires and dams and littermates of dogs who are identified with TVD, as well as those who are researching heart condition in canines

Per the LRC website, the bottom line in helping to control TVD:
Communication and echocardiogram

Unfortunately, I do not believe we will ever have a genetic test (or if we do I won't be alive to see it). The funding isn't there for sure, and I'm not sure the science is there yet to detect a possible dominant gene with incomplete penetration.

A very well respected vet (attends Potomac) once told me that Penn Hip makes fun of OFA because they don't feel that OFA methods are as good as Penn Hip. Whether you agreement with that line of thinking or not....decades of clearing our stock via OFA has greatly reduced the incidence of hip and elbow dysplasia.

Well....if we don't have a test...then we need to do the same with TVD. We all need to be doing Color Dopplers. While it might not make much of a difference tomorrow...it will in ten years.

..and...as a reminder....TVD can also occur spontaneously as a birth defect and not be genetic at all.

I am replying to an early post in this threat because I see an email address containing the name Herman. I have nothing to do with that post. While I appreciate your frustration in trying to breed around this particular health problem, I hope this thread does not escalate into annonymous posters naming suspected carrier pedigrees.

"A false or erroneous accusation can ruin a stud dog or damage a breeder's reputation. Just because posting is annonymous does not mean information will be true. On the contrary, the source of the information should be as important to us as the topic itself."

I am so angry I can barely type this. Apparently it is okay for breeders to stand their dogs at stud even though they have produced TVD in multiple litters. And for those of us too stupid to use them - because no one will openly talk about TVD - just like with PRA in the past - we should keep our mouths shut. Since I bred to a certain dog and got TVD, I have learned that at least some people on the east coast knew not to use him, because, in fact, he is producing TVD. I'm sure those people knew because one of their friend bred to him and got TVD too. My litter wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last. Often times, when you have a very sensitive issue like this, rumors are your only source of information. How many reputable breeders have we seen pull their stud dogs because they are producing TVD? I'm certainly not aware of any recently...

Anonymous doesn't mean the information is false. Police agencies have been solving crimes using anonymous tips for years.

It is obvious you are interested in this topic since you checked the e-mail addresses of the earlier posts. Why did you remove your post that I responded to? No one has posted anything about any particular dogs but there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to talk with each other. Those of us without well known kennels or top stud dogs have a right to know.

TVD is like a violent crime that happens in broad daylight in a highly populated area and somehow there are no witnesses. Some people are afraid to speak up, some people have too much to lose, some people weren't paying attention and finally others saw or heard just a little. The last group is the only one likely to speak up - either because they are naive as to what's at stake or they are brave. We need some brave souls when it comes to TVD.

There is no honest and open discussion about TVD. That is the problem.

If the owners of affected offspring would list their affected dogs on OFA or public web sites, that would be another way to document and see where TVD is cropping up. To look at OFA right now, one would assume TVD is not an issue in this breed. There is no reason to discuss certain dogs, but owners of affected dogs have the right to disclose those results. If stud owners don't like this, they should not be standing the dog at stud. People have to get over themselves to some extent. No dog is entitled to a stud career. It is earned through what they produce. And if they are producing a significant number of issues in multiple bitches, then are they really contributing something worth paying for?

a public database or books - like those for PRA years ago - for TVD. If someone would start that, i would contribute

That would only be helpful if EVERY puppy and young adult has an echo and the results being posted had to be mandatory. You can't get a meaningful picture of who is producing TVD without screening all the offspring. Then you have the puppies who die early...or get resorbed ....could be TVD and no one knows about it. Kudos to those breeders who screen every one of their dogs by echo.

Please share the information with me. I've been lucky enough so far and I want to keep it like that. Thank you so much for sharing.

It's hard enough to get breeders to echo all of their breeding dogs, harder to get them to discuss which dogs have produced an over abundance of TVD. I wish everyone would echo doppler all of their offspring. It's not going to happen though. They whine echos are too expensive and only echo boys, Sometimes.

No echo on a boy and I personally won't breed to him even if then pedigree appears clear. The more behind him or close relatives who have been echoed, the better.

A dog can still be a carrier with a clear echo, but there is a much better chance he or she is clear with an echo. Certainly not just an auscultation! The price of echos at clinics are far from cost prohibitive.

I've heard of too many TVD pups whose dam when tested by echo doppler after she produced a litter with 1 or 2 pups with TVD, find out their own bitch has TVD with a clear auscultation or no cardiac clearance at all.

I would feel like a fool if I was cheap and didn't do an echo then received a phone call from a puppy buyer especially a family with children telling me the pup with died suddenly or was diagnosed with mild, moderate or severe TVD.

No matter how long we're breeding, a well versed mentor-long time breeder, is someone we should all have in our lives to help us get through this TVD mess and other genetic or congenital diseases along with pedigree research.

Because, with incomplete information, you really have no idea how it is coming down through a pedigree. Dominant with incomplete penetrance makes this very hard to pin down since you can have a clear generation and then have it happen in the subsequent generation. Too many people who do not understand the mode of inheritance will most likely lay blame on certain individuals who may be totally non-responsible for the TVD. So, the best we can do is echo everyone to at least get a "small" picture...we will not have any type of reliable way of looking at potential TVD producers until every offspring has an echo. Then there is always the chance of a spontaneous mutation and congenital abnormality caused TVD. It is a can of worms.

I would love a copy of your list, too!

Me too please

I too would be interested in any list. An informed choice is always better than an uninformed one. Thank you.

I would love to please receive any notice of pedigrees containing TVD as well.

I have some names to share too with you newbie if you'd share yours. Or anyone else that has a TVD dog that emails I'll share what I know. I agree that there is no way we are going to get anywhere if we all keep quiet.

One thought is that there is already a registry that allows lists of an affected, such as one that you bred, at no charge: the OFA cardiac listing. I just looked and there are only NINE Labs that come up on a search as having been affected by an abnormal heart of any kind, and only 0.3 percent are listed in the statistics, which should include any dogs whose results are to be secret except to the researchers. Some had pedigrees I had been told to avoid, no matter how much I like their get, but others were a surprise. One was a field line, which pretty much negates the thought that cardiac issues are only in show lines .Labs are Labs. We can start by owning up to our own issues and allowing release of abnormal results with our initials. I am not ready to advocate broadcasting other people's news: that can be full of false rumors and meanness. I also realize that congenital defects can be one offs, not TVD, but it is a start. At least submit for statistical purposes, so the cardiologists know, even if you do not allow release on the database to the general public! OFA states that,
"Affected Animals, Statistical Data Submission and Resubmissions at No Charge"

FWIW.

I am very frustrated by people thinking they are safe using echo clear dogs.
There are many stud dogs out there producing TVD. Their owners know this and continue to place them at stud. These stud dogs have produced MULTIPLE puppies with different bitches and bloodlines but they are popular and make their owners big money. . One I know carries an echo clear status but after research, he and his sire have produced over 8 tvd puppies by various bitch lines.
Being "echo clear" MEANS NOTHING!!!!
By echoing we only weed out the affected.

Actually, being ECHO clear means the dog is not affected, which does mean SOMETHING. There are many heritable issues for which we do not have a definitive test to know whether or not the offspring will be affected. It is no different than being ACVO Clear for eyes - a clear dog can still produce cataracts. A dog that has never seizured can still produce seizures. A dog with OFA Excellent hips can still produce hip dysplasia. But the odds are lower than if the dog is affected or if there are affected dogs throughout the pedigree. A "clearance" is merely a piece of information; it is not a license to breed. We try to make the best decisions we can given the information we have available. I would be far more concerned about a litter bred out of dogs on prelims/no clearances (giving none of the heritable issues that often start to appear around age 2 time to present) than one bred out of "cleared" parents where there is solid familial history.

The more echoes done, the better the chance of this disease not hitting breeders over the head. I am working on doing 4th generation echoes on my bitch line which makes me and the stud dog owners more comfortable. Current stud i used is 3rd generation echoe clear. The chances becom slimmer the more generations cleared by ecoes, not auscultation as a wise woman told me in the middle 2000's

We each do what we want and live with the consequences.

Please e-mail me the TVD list. I'll be grateful for ever.

May I also get a copy of the list.
I am getting ready to breed my first litter and I am trying to make the best decision I can make for her future.
She finished her championship quite easily. Thankfully, she has passed all known clearances, echo included.

I would be interested in the list. Thank you for helping us all.

I'd appreciate it if I could get a copy also.

Could you please send me the list too?

I would never forgive myself if I am not diligent enough doing my research.

Thanks a lot!

Thank you!

Few breeders of affected dogs will probably volunteer this info, but I will take a look.

I received at least half a dozen emails asking about the "list", I don't know whether some people thought I was the OP, or the list maker, or who they thought I was, but I only ever offered to share my affected girl's pedigree.

Don't know why people think it can be boiled down to a list.

(not intended for any one person)
I completely understand the magnitude of TVD being a real problem in this breed but like others have stated all we have to go by are assumptions. The fact is without a test all we are doing "guessing" and causing hysteria. Look at how many people have asked for a list in this thread. A list based on no real fact. I understand that pedigree research is a major part of trying to understand this but again we have no real facts to base our fears on.

My question is how much money is needed for funding research? What is the direction and progression for current research? And what else is there that we can do to help find the facts we are looking for? As far as funding I'm not sure why collectively we in the breed aren't donating? Myself included. Anyone have a link to help clear up some of my questions.