Is placing a puppy, at no charge, on co-ownership, with the agreement of possibly 2 puppies back in the distant future, a fair agreement? I say possibly 2 puppies, because I am not even sure I would follow through with a 2nd pup, 1 puppy would be fine. I was brain storming but by the response, the other party seems like it was not what they wanted to hear. Also stated was that they'd use their own boy and if I wanted an outside stud I would have to pay the stud fee? Yes, this would be my first co-own on a female. I co-own a male and that agreement was X amount and X stud services back. This was for a 2yr old male, OFA hips/elbows done. I got the rest of his clearances (Cardiac, EIC, NARC, DNA, CERF's, etc). I was curious to know what the normal agreement is for a co-ownship for a nice female? I have been offered 2 co-owns in the last 2 yrs. 1 was to pay full price + 1 puppy back. The other was $1800 plus 2 puppies back, female was 1yr, getting prelims before placement. So I was feeding my ideas from these 2 excperences. I turned both down b/c I was not ready to add to the family at the time, but I knew they had a right to ask what they thought was fair.

I want to be nothing but fair, but I also want to be treated fairly. I would place the puppy at no charge because I know clearances would need to be done, she may or may not grow up to be what either of us feel is correct, may or may not pass a clearance, etc. It's a very nice breeding and I am very confident but I know that things just happen.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Are you good friends with this person? Do you know them well? Is he/she a well respected breeder? If not, then don't do it. Sell them the bitch and buy puppies back later.

I think any agreement is fair if both parties agree and feel comfortable with it. If I liked what you were offering me and I felt like I could trust and work with you, I think the agreement is fair. I would love free puppy and if everything worked out with showing and clearances give you a pick pup from litters.

But if the othe person is thinking something is unfair, maybe because you don't want them to use their own boy, then this is not the deal for you.

I like the idea of selling them the pup and buying back pups if you want them later. I would still push for a co-own on paper only to assure that all clearances are done and passed before breeding.

I guess I would have to ask why you would do that if you are not even sure you want a puppy back? I would ask at least half the price for the puppy or the full amount - plus 1 or 2 puppies back- either the puppy itself or the proceeds from selling a puppy. I feel that the other person should have something invested - just me. I would also ask to make the choice of the stud dog - not her dog - unless he is the best thing to use for the girl.

I would be super excited to pay nothing for a pup to co own. I would be fine giving several pups back as payment. Sounds like they want a dog for nothing for no $ or pups. Without them paying anything for the female and you being co-owner, I would say you get to assist in picking stud used and they pay stud fee just as for any other breeding and you get 2 pups back. If they only want to use their stud sounds like they are concerned in what will cost them the least and profit them the most, regardless if their stud is a good match for the girl you give them. Find someone else to co-own with.

This is a bad deal for you. You could get more money selling the pup as a pet and not having to deal with a stressful co-ownership taking a loss.

Most likely the pup wont turn out to be breeding/show quality. Most likely they will just get a pup for free from you. They dont even want to breed her to a quality male. Dont do it. Turn around and run as fast as you can. Change your phone number immediately.

Agree!! RUUUUNNN!!!!

I have had a couple of co-owns, one turned out very well and gave me my first champion. The second one was a disaster for me but great for the co-owner.

I gave a friend a lovely bitch, we were supposed to split all expense related to showing and vet bills. She would house the bitch and take care of food and day-to-day expenses. When we bred her we would split puppies and alternate choosing the stud dog and paying stud fees.

Well over the years I ended up paying for 90% of the entries, 100% of the handling fees to finish the bitch, all of the progesterone tests when she was in heat, a minor surgery, etc. etc. etc.

The co-owner was always between pay checks, urgent bills, year end bonuses that never materialized - excuse, after excuse, after excuse. What made it worse was this person was supposed to be my friend. And I USED to say I would never let money or a dog come between a friendship. I don't say that anymore. If the other party lets it come between the friendship, then I finally figured out I had to play that game too.

She bred the bitch the first time and I took a puppy back. BTW the stud dog owner had to really threaten to get her stud fee and called me about the co-owner. I told her if the co-owner didn't pay I would - after all it was my name on the bitch too. The stud dog owner finally got paid - but not before many a phone call.

Then I asked to breed the bitch the next time and she said "NO" she wasn't going to allow her to be bred until all the puppies from the first litter had their final clearances. Excuse me!?! I gave you this bitch, paid for it to be finished and your telling me I can't breed her? But I was trying to be a good friend and kept my mouth shut.

Well I waited, and was finally able to get the bitch back for a breeding. The co-owner had owed me over $2,000.00 for years and finally said "You know I'm never gonna be able to pay you that money. I'm sorry." Hummmm and yet she was able to attend the Potomac every years for 3 years. And... had made new friends - she quit calling me or attending shows with me.

I know the only reason I got the bitch back for a breeding eventually is because the co-owner had fallen in love with a certain stud dog and wanted me to breed her to him. I am sure she thought I would pick up the tab for her one more time. But I didn't. When I took the bitch to the male of my choice, not hers...she was LIVID. So mad it cost us our supposed friendship. Since then she has trashed me up and down, telling only her side of the story.

No good deed goes unpunished. So run as fast as you can! Do not co-own if they are already stipulating what they will do with your bitch.

Good Luck!

Sign me,
Older, wiser and minus one so-called friend.

You can do a co-own however you want. Take some time to think about what is important to you and get it all in writing. Sometimes I think we all get a little wrapped up in dog shows and forget that the most important thing is for the dog to have a great life. There have been many friendships ruined by co-owning and if this is a person that you want to be friends with, don't do it.
There are alot of "dog people" that get far too carried away with winning and forget that there are more important things in life.
Good luck with your decision :)

This is what I have done in the past. $1500 for a bitch to go out as a co-own. Will discuss stud dog options with co-owner. If we can not agree, I have final say on her 1st litter. Co-owner can use there choice on the bitch's 2nd litter. If bitch doesn't pass all her clearances, money goes back to co-owner. Bitch, otherwise doesn't work out, bitch stays with co-owner and she sells and places. I also get to choose 1st pick. 2nd litter, if I like 2nd pick puppy I pay for it. Co-owner is responsible for stud fee and all expenses related to the litter. After 1st litter, and all written conditions are satisfied, I sign over full ownership.
The scenario you describe concerns me. I personally don't know your prospective co-owner, but your offer is more than fair. For them to disagree on paying for a stud fee, in lieu using there own boy instead, with no money of theirs invested in the bitch and litter is very disconcerting to me. Also, these agreements work well when they are clearly and thoroughly written down. I find when parties are truly good friends or strangers that someone you know well can vouch for them work the best. Trouble sometimes arises from arrangements made with parties that fit between the two situations stated above.
You also have to keep in mind when you are placing a dog out on co-own, you have to prepared for the arrangement to possibly go bad. If this dog could be a potential integral part of your breeding program, please think long and hard, and ask yourself, can you live with loosing the dog from your breeding program. If the answer is no, don't do it!!
Last but not least, I might offer splitting the stud fee with co-owner as a compromise. If prospective co-owner declines this offer, I probably would not go through with the arrangement and keep looking elsewhere.

I have to say THANK YOU all so very much for your views, options and personal experiences, and being so nice. It seems I have allot more to think about. Every one has made very good points.

We are not very close friends, but I have worked with them before with no problems. They have 2 of mine and I have 2 of theirs, but "out-right" with no co-owns. I was just a little worried about their reply back to me, so needed some outside opinions/ experiences.

"Lab Breeder", I *would* take 1 puppy back but I was stating I can't be sure I would actually follow through with selecting a 2nd puppy from a 2nd litter. I would like to keep that option in there, but again, can't say for sure if I would actually take a 2nd puppy.

I am going to think about this a while longer, but I am thinking it may be best if we did not enter a co-own agreement.

Do run away from this person. Crazy. They do want something for nothing and use their own dog for puppies, puppies, puppies ! Nothing wrong with a nice co own with someone you "REALLY KNOW". Don't be fooled by someone who just wants your pedigree and hard work. I charge even the closes of friends. Chances are you will never get a pup back, need a pup back and for sure not two. Take the experience of those who have gone before you, forget this one or anyone like this.

Based upon the replies, I must be one of those few people who have had nothing but "positive" co-ownerships. Maybe that's because I have chosen very selectively who I co-own with and keep our arrangements very simple.

I have entered into several co-owns where there was NO exchange of monies for the co-owned bitch/dog. Agreement was we split health clearance expense and on some bitches we split breeding expense 50/50 (a few agreements we didn't split these expenses). We agree on stud dog selection and when a girl will be bred (taking into consideration timing/life happenings of family/age of dog, etc.). I have also included an option to have a stud dog of my choice (which I have only used one time thus far when co-owner wasn't interested in a puppy to keep). Daily care, usual dog ownership vet and show expense are the sole responsiblity of the owner (but I have also paid show expenses if I really wanted a dog at a particular show).

For me, my co-owns have been great and work really well. In fact, having a few labs on co-owns has allowed me to keep my pedigrees going when my own youngsters and adult breedings didn't work out. I've gained wonderful friends because of my co-ownerships.

My advice to you .... keep your agreement fair and simple. Understand that both parties will NOT have the same "showing" and "breeding" goal as you. Always ensure that the dog will have a great home above everything else with proper care and living environment.

I have had four co-owns. Twice the pup wasn't what they wanted and I took them back, which worked out to my advantage in the end. I never charged for the pup initially. The other two times were for bitches, and the deal was IF they were bred, I would want a puppy back. I would have no say in showing, breeding, nor obligation in costs associated with the dog. I said I would love to advise on the stud dog, but in the end it would be up to them. So looks like I will have my name on two Ch.s and take back a pup when I am ready for one. Everyone is happy.
I think the problems come when there are money issues, stud issues, etc. As long as they don't come into play it works out. If you don't like their stud dog, don't give them the bitch. Sell her outright and buy a pup back later. The money works out the same if not better for you that way. You could always ask to lease her for a breeding if you really wanted something from her with your choice of stud