In the message about the black Lab and the Sandy Hook victims they talk about a broker selling the puppy to someone else. Another post says they sold the puppy to show.

No fires please. I haven't a clue what everyone seems to know about brokering. Just what is it?

TIA

Some puppymills and BYB's use a middle man (aka "Broker") to sell their puppies for them, the "Broker" gets a big cut of profit, and the BYB's and puppymills don't have to deal with puppy buyers. Brokers supply pet stores with puppies, or pose as the breeder, to sell someone else's litter, purely for profit. They don't screen buyers the way a good reputable breeder does, it's all about the money, and making a profit. The puppies are generally not very well cared for, nor socialized, and sick because vaccines and worming puppies costs money.

That's ONE kind of broker, yes.
There's another kind, even more dangerous IMO.
This type buys show/breeding dogs from respected kennels posing as a person who wants to use the dog for showing and breeding themselves.
They pay a handler to show it for a short time, to make themselves look legitimate, and then they export the dog to a foreign country like India or Japan for big bucks.
The breeder never sees their dog again and has no idea where the dog ends up or it's eventual fate. The dog is bred to whatever resembles its breed and likely health clearances don't matter.
This to me is FAR worse than any BYB or puppy mill selling pets to the general public.
Very sad for our breed, and many others.
This is a big business, wake up people!!!

You know nothing of business if you think that all commercial breeders and their brokers sell nothing but sick dogs. How long do you think they would stay in business if their entire product line was sick? Not very long. Do puppies get sick? Of course they do and it happens not only to the commercial breeder but to all breeders. Genetic disorders happen across the board to all breeders/breeds. Just because you do health testing doesn't automatically guarantee that the puppies will not be affected. It just doesn't make sense to sell a sick product. Let me ask you this, have you ever seen video of some of the larger brokers? Do you know the level of care, the type of facilities and the staff they keep in order to make sure the puppies arrive at their destination is good condition, up to date on shots and worming and ready to sell? Do you know that some commercial breeders are even doing health testing now? Probably not because you seem to think that all commercial breeders are those nasty, substandard kennels that we've all seen photos of that elicit an emotional response.

Making money? Wow, you sound like that's a bad thing. Why is it such a sin for a breeder to make money, when veterinarians, handlers, trainers, groomers, etc all make money off our dogs. Like we're the only ones not allowed to make money? I am sure many of the prominent kennels who breed more than a few litters a year, have very popular and well-used studs make money too. But you spew it out like it's a sin and only bad breeders are allowed to make money.

Ever hear of the Hunte Corp? They are one of the largest brokers in the country. I am sure he makes lots of money. But he also spends a lot of money and he oversees the breeders who contract with him. Ever hear of Jimmy Moses, the famous Handler, showing many top German Shepherds? He is good friends with Andrew Hunte. Guess where he bought his little pet dog from? Guess what it is? He bought it through Andrew and it's some little designer mix. He's perfectly happy with his dog and his purchase as are thousands and thousands of others who have bought their dogs through pet stores. If you don't want to get a dog from a pet store, then don't. But please stop painting them all with your nasty stereotypes and blanket statements. I remember talking to Mr. Hunte years ago and he said that one of the breeders he brokers for has show Cockers. It used to be that the big show/hunting/working kennels only sold their dogs through pet stores.

Approximately 23 million homes a year will add a pet each year. It has been estimated that 5 million puppies a year are produced by commercial kennels. Do you really think that the small breeders are going to up their production to fill this demand? Like it or not, pet stores have their place and most of the people who buy their pet from them are completely satisfied. There is no data that shows that puppies purchased at a pet store are any less healthy than those obtained else where. There is data that shows that puppies purchased at pet stores are less likely to end up in shelters. Face it, when someone pays good money for a dog, the statistics show that they are less likely to place it.

Sorry I think your description of a broker is completely absurd and based solely on emotion without one shred of evidence to support your claims.

But as was also pointed out, there are different types of brokers. Generally it is someone who oversees a group of breeders and sells their puppies to pet stores. They must be USDA licensed in order to do so. Any one can be a broker though. It is the middle man so to speak. The broker lines of the sale of a puppy to a third party. Some are good and some are not. Some of us "broker" dogs for other breeder/friends as well.

Thank you everyone for your insight. It was nice to see both sides of the subject and know that there are different types of brokers.

Don't be fooled by the "Endlessly Milling" puppy people who defend brokers since they are also puppy brokers themselves. People who sell puppies to an unsuspecting buyer as one from their kennel, carrying their kennel name, with all papers bearing the name of "Endlessly Milling" puppies are not being honest. Of course they don't see anything wrong with making money, but they do so using means that respectable breeders would never use. Most of the time the puppy buyer is unaware they have been deceived by one of these brokers until a problem comes up and they have someone knowledgable going over the history of the puppy and then they discover that the breeder is not who they thought it was. It is ALL about the money. They might dress things up with a fancy web site and expensive buildings, but the honesty and all that goes with it, is just not there. There is a huge puppy broker out there now who has desperately been trying to buy into the ranks of respectable breeders for several years now. They read this and other forums. They try to join clubs. You need to find out who these people are and be careful.

I have been dealing with the fallout from puppy brokers for 22 years. There are a number of them in Connecticut. I get the devastated families who have had to deal with (and love) sick dogs, and who only learned they had no support when there was a problem. Worse, I get the families who have had to euthanize a dog for an aggressive temperament. It is amazing that they even want another puppy.
These people think they are buying from a breeder and they are not stupid people. Here's the pitch. . . "I have a litter of beautiful puppies. They were bred and home raised by a wonderful minister and his family, friends of mine, from Pennsylvania. I am helping them sell the puppies."
By the way, all the litters are AKC registered, because the uneducated public know enough to "trust" that an AKC registered dog is a quality dog.

As reputable breeders, we know what it takes to get quality puppies from our kennels into the home of a family. It can't be done when puppies are mass-produced in ANY fashion.

First off, you have no idea who I am or how I breed. That's not my point and you are way off with your false assumption. You and Hopbrook bash the brokers because you have seen the "fall out" of the puppies they've sold? Please tell me how many puppies they've personally sold and how many have had problems? Then tell me how many puppies you've personally sold and how many have had problems? You might get a much more accurate picture of the percentage of puppies that get sick. And yes, puppies get sick, they have genetic disorders, purebred or mixed. That's dogs for you. I've personally talked to people who have gotten dogs from breeders who did all the health testing and their puppy still got sick. Heck in all my years of breeding (30 years of 1-2 litters a year, if that as some years I didn't breed), I've produced a hand full of puppies with genetic disorders. I've bought dogs from well-known breeders that developed genetic disorders. I had to put down a year old pup with severe hip dysplasia. It happens, that's dog breeding and dogs in general. With all the testing we do, we still produce problems. Dogs are living creatures dominated by genetics. Sometimes they are good and sometimes something goes wrong. We don't like it when it goes bad but perhaps you should explain that to people so they understand we can't control mother nature.

Making money? Oh you make it sound so evil. Just because breeders do it, doesn't mean they cut corners. You may not like it, you may think it's wrong, but it's only wrong to YOU! If you want to preserve your rights to breed, you have to allow others their rights under the law. There are plenty of laws already on the books that protect dogs and buyers and there will always be some who don't abide by them on matter what. We don't need more. But your pure anecdotal stories without providing accurate facts and statistics just feeds more fuel to the Animal Rights groups that want to take away your rights to breed by passing more and more restrictive, anti-breeding laws that do hurt the small breeders.

There are plenty of very satisfied buyers who have purchased their dogs from sources other than your narrow-minded way of thinking. Not everyone wants a show dog. Not everyone wants to go through a breeder. This is a free country and we have still have the freedom of choice.

The AKC is working hard to protect our rights to breed. Maybe you should not jump on the knee-jerk bashing band wagon like the Today Show did and actually support your club, who has the breeder and the dog's best interest at heart. Otherwise, you may find yourself unable to breed in the future and our only source of dogs will be from the shelters. When we run out of shelter dogs, they will continue to bring in feral street dogs from other countries to fill that demand.

"Quote: Beware of brokers

Don't be fooled by the "Endlessly Milling" puppy people who defend brokers since they are also puppy brokers themselves. People who sell puppies to an unsuspecting buyer as one from their kennel, carrying their kennel name, with all papers bearing the name of "Endlessly Milling" puppies are not being honest. Of course they don't see anything wrong with making money, but they do so using means that respectable breeders would never use. Most of the time the puppy buyer is unaware they have been deceived by one of these brokers until a problem comes up and they have someone knowledgable going over the history of the puppy and then they discover that the breeder is not who they thought it was. It is ALL about the money. They might dress things up with a fancy web site and expensive buildings, but the honesty and all that goes with it, is just not there. There is a huge puppy broker out there now who has desperately been trying to buy into the ranks of respectable breeders for several years now. They read this and other forums. They try to join clubs. You need to find out who these people are and be careful."

I've got one of these puppies. EXACTLY as you described it. She has severe hip dysplasia. Come to find out her "breeder" was a "broker." The name of the "breeder" was another person listed on the registration when it finally came. The "broker" portrayed herself as the loving, caring "BREEDER." Loving and caring, she was not. But that is another story.

"Here We Go Again" - If a response doesn't apply to you, don't be offended. But if it does, well, don't be surprised when people discuss factual situations. Things do happen and dogs do get sick and get genetic disorders. It is how the breeder, or broker, reacts and treats the family when a puppy owner calls with a problem.

No one here has presented any solid facts. The only thing people are discussing here are anecdotal incidents. What are the facts? Show me the percentage of puppies sold by these third parties and show me how many are sick or have a genetic disorders. Then show me the percentage of puppies sold by breeders that are sick, pet stores that are sick. You can't. Instead you paint those you don't agree with with a very broad brush and stereotype their operations without first hand knowledge of how they operate. They are being scapegoated here and made to seem that they are the only ones who occasionally sell a sick puppy. We all do. No one has yet to breed the perfect dog.

Not offended, just trying to put things in perspective.

I don't have statistics for you. I wish someone would provide them.

But, my dog's severe hip dysplasia is a FACT. Not anecdotal. The name on the registration certificate when it finally arrived was not the name of the "breeder" who portrayed herself as such, and she had no problem taking my money. That is a FACT. The way I was treated when my dog was diagnosed may be anecdotal to you, but to me it is a FACT.

Again, if the above FACTS do not apply to you, don't be offended. But don't insult me by saying our experience is just anecdotal and don't try to change the FACTS of what our experience has been and what we live with day after day with our dog.

Again, I'm not offended. I don't understand why you think I am. And I'm sorry your dog has a problem. It always sucks when something goes wrong. There are no guarantees.

It may be your experience and I've had similar experiences as you. I've bought dogs from good breeders, who sold me a dog out of their breeding but who were not listed as the breeder. I've bought their stud puppies that they took in lieu of a fee but that they did not breed. I have had wonderful experiences and not so wonderful experiences. These are all anecdotal and apply to the very small experiences that I've seen. I've had dogs with severe hip dysplasia that had to be put down. That's dog breeding. It happens. Do I blame the breeders for mother nature? No. I don't even ask for a replacement. I took the chances, some didn't work out, time to move on.

But when you paint all breeders or those selling puppies for others for all your dog's problems, then you are just spouting one bad experience. It is not a fair representation of the dog breeding world. Mine aren't even a fair representation. This is why you have to look at the big picture. You and others want to blame your dog's problems on a broker like some how if you bought it from the breeder themselves you wouldn't have a problem? Now that's failed logic. I'm trying to point out that you may have had a problem no matter who you bought the dog from. It happens. You can do all your homework, work with a breeder who does all the health testing and still have a problem. That breeder may or may not be sympathetic. Then all breeders would be bad in your eyes?

You do not want to take responsibility for buying a dog the way that you did. It's easier to blame someone else. If making sure the breeder on the papers was the person you were buying the dog from was so important to you, you should have verified it before buying the puppy. If buying from a breeder was so important to you, why didn't you visit the litter and see the parents before you bought it? If health was so important to you, why didn't you verify OFA certifications? If health was so important, why didn't you insist on a puppy warranty spelling out what would happen in the event of a genetic problem? Don't act like you're a victim of some sinister broker. Don't say it's because you didn't know, ignorance is not bliss. Don't say it wasn't important before you had a problem and now it is. If people don't educate themselves or allow themselves to be manipulated, that's their problem. Take responsibility.

The facts are all dogs are predisposed to certain genetic disorders. I've had mixed bred dogs with health problems, including HD. In fact a recent study showed that mixed bred dogs aren't any healthier than purebreds.

Are there bad people in dogs? Absolutely. I don't deny that, but do you really think it's fair, because you had a bad experience to bash all brokers or breeders? Again, I bet if you were to see the bigger picture, you would see that odds are most people are happy and their dogs are healthy from where ever they obtained them from, despite the few bad apples and despite the inevitable problems that do show up from time to time.

Here's a bit of copy on your Hunte corp.
“Brokers do not breed dogs, they buy litters of puppies from Puppy Mills. Their business is wholesaling these pathetic creatures, enabling “Millers” to continue operations. Older animals, dogs with deformities, no longer of value to the Mills are sold at Auctions, direct from the Mills or by Brokers. The Hunte Corp., one of the largest, buys puppies from Mid West Breeders and resells to Pet Stores Nationally and Overseas. This Broker has been funded in part, by million dollar loans from the USDA. Brokers are covered under “The Animal Welfare Act”, enforced by the USDA, the same Agency charged with inspecting licenced Kennels and Brokers. Is this not paradoxical?. Hunte Corp. Chairman, Andrew Hunte, said “The loans allow us to expand our business. We deal with breeders in several “Midwest States” who can meet our Standard of quality care. Hunte Corp., has exemplary facilities in MO. Puppies are Trucked from the Mills to these facilities, where they are groomed, vetted, vaccinated and sold to Pet Shops Nationwide. Hunte Corp.,gives them good care, nevertheless, they are a successful, recognized Broker, whose income, reported to be $26,000.000 in 2002, is primarily derived from the output of Millers. Puppies must be weaned very young to go through the Hunte checkup to arrive at Pet Shops by average age of 8-10-12 weeks old.” Mrs. Paddy Magnuson, 
POB 292 Delhi NY 13753 
magnus@delhitel.net

Why not vent to them.

Here is the entire topic

http://www.thepuppymillproject.org/amw-hunte-corporation

Well isn't that special? Pure biased Animal Rights Proganda at its finest. It's no wonder when people hear that nasty vigilante hate slur that they support all anti-breeding legislation even if it hurts good breeders. The term evokes those emotionally manipulative images and all rationality goes out the window. Have you personally seen Hunte's operation? Have you personally visited the breeders with whom he contracts with? I didn't think so. Then you have no idea what you are talking about and just judge them based on what you hear from the AR. You just go dredge up some website published by animal rights extremists who want to blanket the entire commercial breeding industry in one broad sweeping generalization.

There is not one way to breed dogs, there is not one way to buy dogs. If it were up to the AR groups, your only choice will be through a shelter. The Today Show expose on the AKC should have been a wake up call to all breeders that in the eyes of the AR we are all the same. They make no distinction, a breeder is a breeder and they need to be stopped. Propaganda like the stuff shown on the link you provided is just a way to manipulate the public and turn them against all breeders.

The commercial breeders serve a purpose. Small breeders could never fill the demand for puppies. They stay in business because they have many happy puppy buyers too. Why is it so hard for you acknowledge that? Why are you all so narrow-minded to the fact that others don't agree with you. Others have different sets of morals and values and that there is room for all? What makes you so superior to others? Is that why you show dogs because you have a big ego? You feel the need to think you are better than other people?

I've see the joy that dogs brings to people and to the children that own them and love them. Why does it matter if the dog came from a good commercial breeder or from a small breeder or from a shelter? The fact that the vast majority of these dogs bring so much enrichment to their owners' lives why does it matter so much to you?

Here is the real picture of Hunte: http://www.thehuntecorporation.com/seeyourself.html

Breaking down stereotypes and opening minds one at a time.

I don't know what your agenda is? I dare say at least 75% (or more) of the Labrador breeders who list on this forum are hobby breeders who more or less adhere to the same philosophy on what a careful breeder does. I would say this philosophy cuts across interests as well. . . conformation, obedience, field work, just sound pets. If they make some money to support this expensive hobby. . . nobody cares. It is what happens before, during and after a whelping that matters. We all know what that is; so I won't bore the reader and preach to the choir with the steps careful breeders take to produce a quality dog. If a puppy buyer has lucked out with a puppy mill puppy, then I say, "God Bless." Me. . . I try really, really hard not to leave it up to luck. And, if things go sour, my puppy buyers know they can turn to me for support (and compensation). Ask a puppy mill owner to do that!

First of all, I love how you can pull a percentage out of thin air. You have no idea how many good Labrador breeders are on here. You don't even know how many would fit your definition of a good breeder.

Secondly, how can you be so convinced that you produce a superior product when you still produce defects and you have no stats showing that dogs purchased in pet stores are any less healthier than those obtained elsewhere?

As for my agenda, I just grow tired of people jumping on the breeder bashing bandwagon. It does nothing to further our cause. It only divides us and given the persistence of the AR movement to take away our rights to breed, no matter how ethically we think are, we can't be so arrogant to think the laws won't affect us.

Lastly, I'm not advocating the support of commercial kennels or pet stores. I'm not asking you to recommend people to buy from pet stores. What I am hoping is that people will recognize that they have as much right to breed the way their morals and ethics dictate to them. As long as there is a demand for puppies, there will always be pet stores and breeders/brokers who supply them. The industry has come a long way and have made huge strides to improve the health of their dogs as well as the cleanliness of their facilities. They have breeder conferences and workshops to learn to breed the best way they can. They employ many people to help manage their dogs. It's just way beyond what we all were led to believe about them by the AR extremists. Trust me, I used to be very closed minded when it came to only one way to breed dogs. It was my way or the highway, but then I became enlightened to the very real threat of being legislated out of our rights. I was brainwashed by the AR groups propaganda and felt that I was ok because I bred ethically. Then I woke up. It's real folks and if we keep bashing each other, tearing each other apart, using the emotionally manipulative language to describe breeders we don't like, well, we will fall. If either the PUPS bill or the proposed APHIS rules go through, it will severely limit and restrict your ability to conduct your own breeding program no matter how ethically you think you are.

"The industry has come a long way and have made huge strides to improve the health of their dogs as well as the cleanliness of their facilities. They have breeder conferences and workshops to learn to breed the best way they can. They employ many people to help manage their dogs."
You seem to be quite knowledgeable about this industry. Who do you include in this industry? You also mention that this industry serves a very important purpose. It supplies the volume of puppies that the public needs. And, that the industry may do things differently (maybe, not in the best interest of the puppy) is okay because ultimately, we will have a happy, pet-filled public.
Let me give you a comparison. My friends were childless and they were very lucky to get a Chinese baby girl, a two year old toddler. Her parents gave her up because, maybe, she was not the boy that the birth parents wanted and because, the birth parents were only allowed one child. So this baby girl was raised in an orphanage until my friends luckily were matched with her. So we should all say, "thank goodness, that the Chinese had their one baby policy." My friends and a whole bunch of other people got their wonderful babies. In other words, YOU are saying the ends justify the means. Puppies for everyone. . . doesn't matter how they are raised, let's just satisfy the public. I think you do know it DOES matter how they are raised. None of us can avoid the disappointments and sadness that happen in animal husbandry. None of us produce perfect puppies. But, don't ever put me in the same category as a puppy mill operator.

LMAO, did you not see the Today Show where the HSUS put YOU in that category? Did you read their quotes where they put ALL breeders in that category? I don't have to put you anywhere, in the eyes of the AR extremists, yes the ones who are bombarding lawmakers with overly restrictive, anti-breeder laws, YOU are already in that category! No honey I don't have have to put you there. Are you that arrogant or that ignorant to think you will be spared when it comes to making laws? All they have to do is wave their little hate slur wand and presto, no more breeding.

How do I know about the Commercial Breeding industry? I've learned about it from reading about them from reputable sources. I have met people who run pet stores and am open to listening to the way they care for their pets. I know the key to winning the war against animals is to not alienate others. United we stand, divided we fall.

Like it or not, there is a huge demand in this country for puppies. Some 23 million new homes become available for a new pet each year. According to the Center For Disease Control, shelters import approximately 500,000 dogs each year from other countries where there are no standards. If you shut down commercial breeders, are you going to breed more dogs to fill the demand? Should we import more dogs each year that often times bring in diseases or strains of diseases we don't yet have vaccines for? Dogs of unknown background/temperament? Welcome to the new Sheltering Industry. The AR have done such a great job with their pushing of spay/neutering, vilify ALL breeders and spreading their adopt, don't shop mantra, that now sheltering is becoming quite the industry too.

How do I know all these things? I opened my eyes and my mind. I let go of all the old stereotypes and scapegoating. Trust me, it's hard to let go, but when you do you will see a there is much more to this than just being an ethical breeder. Ethics differ from person to person. For those in PETA their ethics mean no animal use period. No meat, no leather, no hunting, no dogs, no breeding, no entertainment. Yes, they have extreme ethics but that is what drives them to try to put us out of business--all breeders. Is it right for them to try to push their ethics on all of us? No way! Why should we be doing the same thing?

I truly hope that you and others see the light before it's too late to fight. It doesn't mean you have to sell to pet stores. You just promote your breeding in a positive light without bashing other breeders. But if you get rid of the commercial breeders first, we are slim pickens as we do not have the money or the numbers to fight alone. It's all about keeping our rights to breed. They are in serious jeopardy.

Well, this article on a study that was conducted does not address the OP's question, but perhaps it is germane to the current discussion. If you can call this thread a discussion. I think someone said they wanted facts.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201305/behavior-differences-in-dogs-pet-stores-versus-breeders

If you read this study, it's not a very accurate sampling of dogs. It doesn't say what breeds were tested, etc. There were only 400+ pet store dogs tested vs. over 5000+ breeder tested dogs. Pretty lop-sided if you ask me.

I think if it quacks like a duck, it probably is.

OP, you got the definition of a broker. It's pretty easy to find a reputable hobby breeder to do business with.

Offended or not, Here We Go Again, has an awful lot to say. Scream it all you want, I know what you are and so does everyone else.

The empty drum bangs the loudest.

Short, sweet and True!

The 'Endlessly Milling' type breeders make their own beds, they can lie in them. Most of us know who brokers or work with brokers to sell a lot of pups.

I have told many a pup family who and what to stay away from. I'm glad I have many times and I'll do it again anytime. I refer them to non-brokering, responsible breeder if I don't have my once a year or 2 litter..

Go ahead and be dismissive because you want to try to make it all go away. Think of me as whatever type of breeder you want to if that makes you feel more secure. Bury your head in the sand. Believe you are such a wonderful breeder and that no legislation will ever affect what you do and love and have poured your heart and soul into. I just hope that I've been able to reach through to some on here and get them thinking about their future. About ALL of our future.

Sorry but the truth hurts.

You know I tell anyone and everyone to look for someone who does more with their dogs than breed them, whether it is conformation, obedience, field trials, hunt tests, hunting, agility, or tracking. I explain education is the key. Look for the person involved with an activity, who goes to educational seminars, has multiple involved breeder friends, belongs to dog clubs/groups, is breeding for the betterment of the breed. Don't get in a hurry, develope a relationship with your breeder. After all the new puppy will be a member of your family. Right???

"Here we go again"

Is it your opinion that brokers are the BETTER option for a pure bred puppy buyer?

Please be brief in your response.

Brief??? She generates so much hot air I think she must be Al Gore's primary source of Global Warming!

To blah blah blah and RU serious. You need to get a freakin life and stop being such snobby bitches. When someone is trying to educate others and the only thing you have to offer is snide remarks it doesn't look very good on you nor says much about your character.

Animal rights bills are very much a threat to all breeders. It doesn't matter how reputable you want to believe you are. It will eventually affect you. Thank you "Here we go again" for your insight. Keep up the good fight I appreciate your education.

You don't educate by being a self righteous zealot who rams his ideology down someone else's throat. The discussion was about brokers. I will not stoop to your level of class, or lack thereof, and blatant display of lack of manners, to resort to name calling and insults. People who do have limited means of expressing themselves in an appropriate and effective manner.
Puppy brokers are in the "industry" of "product" for "profit", pure and simple. Not for me. End of story.

The only people I see here name calling and insulting are you so called reputable breeders. I would never buy a puppy from such breeders that are so nasty to others. You are really making yourself out to be outstanding people. You are the ones who reek of self righteous zealots. Breed my way or the highway or will call you a bunch of dirty filthy names. The end of the story will be when there are so many laws that you will no longer be able to breed. You may not want to hear this but dog breeding is an industry and you do produce a product that you sell for money.

First of all, thank you Idiots (sounds funny saying that) for your understanding.

Secondly, would you believe me if I said no, a broker is not the better option? I am a small, hobby breeder. I have had my hobby breeder's permit for nearly 20 years. I'm already regulated, inspected and taxed up the a$$ just to have my dogs. I rarely even breed. Do I believe they have a right to do business and make money in the US? Absolutely, just as we all do.

Thirdly, sorry to disappoint you RU and add to global warming, it won't be short. I believe in our rights, as Americans, to the liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I do not want to control every one or tell them what they can or can't do. It's not my job. I just want to be able to enjoy what I do and most of all enjoy my dogs. It pains me that there are a small, but very vocal and very well financed group of people who don't believe that we should own pets, let alone breed them. I just hope that breeders will wake up and realize that these rights are in jeopardy by these groups and learn the best ways to fight them.

Lastly, it is upsetting that some choose to mock me, insinuate that I am not a reputable breeder, not a good person, call me names and treat me poorly because I choose to stand up for our rights. I am proud of that fact that I can stand up. I will fight any and all anti-breeder laws that I can. I hope that you love and care for your dogs and are as passionate about them as I am. I want you to join the fight. And if you're still reading, I repeat, it does not mean you have to support, condone, recommend or sell to those with whom you don't agree with, but you must stop the bashing. When you use those terms, the animal rights language and thought, you are only hurting yourself. You tell your puppy buyers not to buy from those sources and "educate" them as to how terrible they are without any first hand, personal knowledge of who they are and what they do(kind of like how you are treating me). You just continue with the stereotypes and blanket statements, instead of tooting your own horn and educating them as to why you breed the way you do and selling them on how good your dogs are. So is it any wonder that when a measure or law comes up on the ballot that they vote for it because it contains that language? But did they -or you-for that matter read it to realize that it will restrict your numbers, restrict your options/choices? We have been brainwashed with these trigger words that stirs our emotions and clouds our judgement.

Actually, I make no apologies for not doing as you say (keeping it short) nor am I responsible for the earth's natural warming and cooling cycles.

Thank you to those who are listening and keeping an open mind.

After reading through this long winded thread and noting the comments made, I have to reply to the assertion made by "Idiots"(IMO, this sounds a LOT like the Here we go again poster) "The only people I see here name calling, and insulting are you so called reputable breeders. " I also did not see any mocking, bashing, name calling, insinuations that the long-winded poster was a bad person, etc. the topic was about the definition of a BROKER. The name calling and insult hurling all appears to be coming from the two posters (again, I believe they sound as if they were the same person, but since this is an anonymous board, who knows for sure?) and, since no one gives much thought to what someone says if they will not identify themselves, who really cares what they say.

You can look up Hunte corp and make up your own minds if this is something to be admired and defended.

As for me, I am also taxed, have a fancier's license (since I participate in recognized activities in dog sport)and comply with my local laws. I am not USDA inspected and am not inspected annually by the AKC since I do not broker or otherwise engage in high volume "product" for the "industry". The few puppies I breed are raised in my home, kept clean and happy, socialized well, and each one goes to a loving home with people who have personally met me and my dogs(usually a good number of times) and spent a great deal of time with before allowing them to take one of my precious puppies. I am not opposed to regulating these high volume producers of product. In fact, I wish the laws controlling their practice was even more strict than it is now. I do not believe, nor do I deserve to have some anonymous person berating me for my way of thinking since they have no right to do so. I will not listen to those long bearded cartoons wearing hair shirts standing with their placards on the corner predicting gloom and doom. I think, as a nation, we are so much better than that.

And then see if you can saying anything in defense of brokers or the Hunte Corp.

http://media.columbiamissourian.com/multimedia/2010/10/27/media/Dead_Dogs_RA_report_FINAL.pdf

Again, you have to look at the source and the propaganda that comes from those who want to not only shut down all commercial breeding, but all breeding period. I tried to see what the columbiamissourian is and it's an anonymous site. I have no idea where this information comes and no way to verify it. It may or may not be credible. This is some of the AR tactics though. They will show you "shock" photos just to get your emotions up so that will not think rationally. If you like to think that all commercial breeders or brokers are the way these shock pieces portray them, that is your choice. I am here to tell you they are not. Just as not all show breeders are reputable or do things cookie cutter. But if you stop one sector of breeding you can pretty much kiss your sector good-bye as well.

Like them or not, commercial breeders still have that right to breed. Most are well run, clean kennels. The bad apples, and we have them to in our sector too, are the ones who make all breeders look bad. But it doesn't matter how we breed in the end, it only matters that we do breed and that is what these groups want to put to an end. They will spread lies and misinformation to lump us all together. The only way to fight it is stop fighting each other and ban together and fight it with all breeders. Fight with other animal use groups, the ranchers, farmers, etc. The HSUS is attacking from all sides. You all seem to miss that point on here. You'd rather fight me and fight the truth. Keep making fun of me and my "long winded" posts.

Despite what you claim, It is far from being an anonymous site. Interesting how you say you could find nothing about this newspaper....but then again.......
http://www.columbiamissourian.com/

Fine- as you say- this type of business is "not for you." There are a lot of businesses that "aren't for me," as well. White Castle, Petco, Wal-Mart- I don't agree with the way they do business but what they're doing isn't illegal. I choose not to patronize them but I don't go around spreading lies and rumors about what I think their business practices might be. I used to hate the idea of "puppy mills" too, but if 100% of people got bad dogs from pet stores, pet stores and puppy mills would quickly go out of business.

How do you expect to have thousands of dogs and NOT have any of them die off? In any population that large, dogs are going to die. If there were that many people, about that many would die. What was the problem was the method of disposal. Not everyone is going to cremate their animals and/or bury them with a headstone. These animals are livestock- not pets. Second, the way the article was presented seems really ridiculous- they are making up numbers that are not correct,when you look at the pictures. They are assuming each dog that died was 1-2 lbs? Some of the dogs in those pictures had to weigh 10-60 lbs.

Again you have not proven any source. So there is a paper that has this name. Their archived stories are not on the "media.columbiamissourian" site that you posted of previous. A brief look at their archived stories are on "http://uom.merlinone.net/".

You can provide all the links you want to, but please be aware that so many of the photos/blogs/videos are lies, staged, and taken out of context. Remember there is always two sides to every story. The AR groups do conduct illegal raids. They do stage photos. They have been or are being sued and losing. They are being forced to pay up. They hype and sensationalize their stories. They play off animal lovers' emotions to get donations. They set up funds and collect money for crisis/disasters, etc. and those animals never see the money. The ASPCA just settled with Feld Entertainment, the parent company for Ringling Brothers Circus for $9.3 million dollars. They brought animal cruelty charges against them and when it was found that they paid a witness, the case was thrown out. The Feld group brought a lawsuit against them and the HSUS under the RICO (Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization Act). The court case is still ongoing against HSUS and a few other groups that conspired against Feld.

All I'm saying is you can't believe everything you read, especially when there's an agenda behind it. I'd like to think that most people are kind, decent people who love their animals. They may not all love them the same way (mine sleep in my bed), but the do care about them and care for them. Until I see it with my own eyes or hear it from a trusted source, I will with hold judgement.

Instead of hiding and accusing me of spreading lies, why not identify yourself? I would love to know who Hot Air, Idiots, and Here we go again really are. As to the spreading propaganda remark, just what do you think you are doing with all of your anonymous rhetoric? You said it yourself...we can't believe everything we read (especially from someone who is what? too ashamed? Too Cowardly? What have you, ....to use his own name) especially since you have tried so hard to pound out YOUR agenda.
Consider the source, in this case the anonymous sources....if you can't stand behind what you say then it is not worth reading.

Gail, or should I say Read this, up until now you were anonymous except you forgot to take off your email and had to uncloak. Not seeing an agenda by Here we go again or Hot Air, just common sense information.

I was hardly anonymous, unlike everyone else, including you. Perhaps you, Idiots, Here we go again, etc. are all one and the same? It appears so.

Have you ever heard of the word "segue"? "Read this" was merely meant as a transition into the link provided. There was nothing else implied or opined. When I voice my opinion, I use my name since I have nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about. You might like it if you tried it. Judging by the feedback I have been getting via email, your position is a very unpopular one.

I really don't care what you or any one who allegedly is sending you messages think about me. I know my message is not one that everyone is willing to understand at the moment. Some people are open to changing the way they think and the way they promote their dogs. I'm not asking anyone to breed commercially (although if either PUPS or the APHIS rules go through many breeders will have to become commercial or limit their breeding programs) or sell their dogs through pet store. But does anyone really want the Government to tell you how to breed dogs? I sure don't.

Anyway, you can think what ever you want about me. I agree that your post was anonymous as well. If you didn't try to be anonymous you would have just posted your real name under the name. I do not know who you are by your email address. In fact a Google Search of your email doesn't turn up anything about you either. I do not know any breeders by your name. I know a few Gails in Labs, but none with your last name. I do not see any breeders of Labradors owned by a Gail Paulson nor a website that contains that email. So as far as I am concerned, you are just as anonymous as I or anyone else who posted and it may be you who have posted all the other attacks on me and others who shared my view. Or you just may be one of the ARists that frequent this board.

As for my agenda, I really don't have one. I am simply trying to unite all breeders to fight against these large AR groups that are trying to destroy our way of life. Destroy all our hard work and dedication. If you don't want to listen and don't want to help, that's your decision. You are probably not even a breeder anyway. If you want to keep thinking like the AR groups and help them by using their divisive language and sharing their propaganda, that's on you.

But by the looks of things on here, some people are getting it. If you just want to dismiss it by saying we are all the same person, that's your opinion and I can say the same of you.

I'm a fighter and I'll keep on fighting if it means I can continue to enjoy having my dogs and breeding an occasional litter. I don't expect everyone to agree.

Here we go again!;

You actually had the testicles to Google a breeders email and name? Ever think she uses her maiden name for email, her kennel name or something like it?

I can't believe you when on a hunt for poster Gail's email address. That's just why I don't use my name or email on posting boards, because of people like you.

You have fanned the fires with long posts when you're the one who seems to defend brokering. Maybe you are an actual broker or have brokers working for you.

You are 1 of 5 breeders I've heard of with large, Department or Agriculture inspected kennels. If not, youre a close friend of ome of large brokers.

If you would stop posting, othmaybekkers would stop most of it too. So maybe you can keep quiet, stop tracing people on the internet

Think before you type.

Wow- YOU were the one who brought up anonymity and how you wished you knew who "we" were and about our "real agenda" yet you have the cojones to get upset when someone else tried to do the same thing to you?

I have no agenda- I don't breed dogs, and never will. I don't like the idea of what is commonly known as a "puppy mill" and would never buy a dog from a pet store. However- I am not everyone. I want everyone to be able to buy the dog of their choice from the source of their choice. Let the market set the demand, and who succeeds, and who fails. People get so upset that the average pet owner doesn't research things the way we "dog people" would- this is just another step on their path to learning how to buy the right dog for them and their family.

No one has ever proven that puppy mill dogs are not as healthy as dogs from reputable breeders or dogs from rescues. I know plenty of people who have bought expensive dogs from reputable breeders and who have had genetic issues/problems with the breeder fulfilling their contract/temperament issues and just as many people who have those same problems with dogs from shelters or pet stores or backyard breeders. At this point, brokers and large scale breeders fill a need, as much as we may not think it's ideal. There are cruelty laws on the books- they need to be followed. There is never any excuse for treating any animal cruelly, but raising dogs in kennels and then selling them is not cruel. Disposing of dead dogs in a dump is not cruel. Selling puppies at 8 weeks old is not cruel.

Dumping a dead dog in a dump is not cruel to the dead dog but the human act is not compassionate, is not what dedicated breeders do and is not considered by anyone that I know of to be the proper way to say good by to what may have been a treasured part of one's breeding program .

Puppy mills are hard pressed to raise dogs in the proper social environment. If they could, I wouldn't have any complaints.

At this is my point: Substandard breeders aside. You know the ones. These are the types of breeders the AR groups use in all their anti-breeding propaganda to gather more donations and say they are going after them but really affect they are going after all breeders. If you are talking about commercial breeders under the same breath, this is where you are off base. How you know that they all breed like this? Have you ever personally visited these people? Have you ever sat down to see how they take care of their dogs and how they hire full time staff to socialize and exercise the dogs? That some pet stores/brokers, have guidelines established for the breeders they work to ensure the dogs are socialized? This is the problem. We've been so brainwashed that when we hear this term, we just cast out a wide net and visualize those poor puppies and dogs that we've all seen photos of and paint everyone who breeds differently from us with the same broad brush. We don't stop and think that there a lot of people who do care for and about their dogs. Sure they aren't personal pets like some of ours are, but that doesn't make it wrong.

OMG you're too funny. Yes they are quite large, but my brain is even larger. It's called verifying sources. Google allows me to find many things to back up my claims. But you should know, I did not go looking for her email. I simply Googled the one she left on here. It wasn't difficult. It turned up nothing. If you Googled my email, it comes back with a history of all the stuff I've done over the years in dogs from my website, to my rescue work, to show results. I do not know why you would not want to take a look to see where someone is coming from if it is at a click of a button. I do a lot of research online and when someone attacks me for choosing to stay anonymous, while doing the same thing herself, well I like to verify that. Being that her email and named turned up nothing, then she is just as anonymous as me. I could make up a name and put a throw away email address on it too. Would that make me any more credible? Maybe she'll comeback as herself again and tell us who she really is. Never mind, it really doesn't matter to me who or what she is.

I do not use my real name because I also get attacks from the AR nuts as they don't like what I have to say about them. It is not beyond them to call the authorities on me and try to have my 8 dogs seized (yes count them, I own 8 dogs). It's happened before to other breeders and it's actually been done breeder on breeder too. I am outspoken and I will not just go away or shut up. Too much passion about my hobby to do that. That's exactly what the AR nuts want. They want us to shut up and go away so they can save all our poor, abused forcefully breed dogs.

Well that's about as funny as your other insinuations about who I am or what I do or who my friends are. Pure conjecture on your part. Total assumptions and you know what that means when you assume? It makes an as... well you should know the saying. I have to ask about something in your post, I tried to Google it, but the word did not show up. What exactly are "othmaybekkers"?

And that is the crux of the matter. Not everyone looks upon dogs like YOU do. There are people somewhere, I guarantee, that would point fingers at the way you treat your dogs and find ways in which you fall short. Yeah, I would never ever dump my dog in a trash pile, but I also don't cremate my dogs and get their remains back. I have many friends that do- I would hate to think that they are thinking of me as "not compassionate" or "not saying good-bye properly." I have friends that feed BARF- I don't. I have friends that feed Purina and yes, I look down on them- but I would never suggest they aren't doing the best they can in the way they feel appropriate.

If the dogs in a large kennel environment get socialized with each other and get exercise, they are probably quite happy. It's somewhat of a conceit for us to believe we are the end all-be all of our dogs lives.

We did not fine tune dog breeding over the centuries so that dogs can be "quite happy" in a run with each other. We've bred them over the years with dedication to making them better companions and healthier animals and to the extent of our hobby to breed better and better dogs. You do not find dogs like that at a pet shop.

Really? Are you so self-centered to actually believe that you are the center of your dog's universe and every he does revolves around you? Tell that to the two dogs behind me that are playing with each other and ignoring me now that I've finished my lunch. Food gone, they get nothing, I'm out of the picture for now. And this is how the domestication of the wolf began. It was a relationship based on them getting what they needed, food scraps from humans. An easy meal for them. Over the centuries man began to use the dogs for things such as hunting, draft work, fur and food-many of the things dogs are still bred for. In some cultures dogs are still used for food and fur.

Some hunters would disagree with you. As a Labrador person myself, I know many show and field breeders who still keep large numbers of dogs to breed and train for the show ring or for field trials or just for hunting. They produce many pet puppies too. Their dogs all live in kennels. Is this wrong in your eyes? How about those who breed dogs for police or military work? Do they all keep these large number of dogs in their house and let them all sleep in their beds? I think not.

Dogs are dogs. They are not little people in fur coats. No matter how much people anthropomorphize over their dogs they will still have their own set of inherited instincts that dictate their behavior and their needs. It is well known that dogs are pack animals and are very social animals. If they can't be with their own kind, they easily adapt to being part of our pack, but that never means they then become human or that they lack anything for being with other dogs. That's the beauty of being a dog, they easily adapt to most situations and that's what makes them good workers and good companions.

But by your logic, people should not only stay away from Pet Stores because those dogs aren't as good as the ones the "we" breed. So what about most shelter dogs that have no background whatsoever? Do those dogs also not make good pets? Faulty logic. Most people love their dogs no matter what. They don't care that they aren't the perfect show dog or the perfect breed or representative of the breed. Some love the uniqueness of a mix or designer breed. They create and share a bond with them that has been going on for thousands of years. To say people shouldn't have a choice of where they get their pets from is just shallow and narrow-minded. The AR believe the only place people should get their dogs from is a shelter? Who's right, who's wrong? And can't we all just get along?

OMG, I almost lost control of my bladder! RU Serious, you hit the nail on it's head. Great comment and advice for 'here we go' who is overly long-winded!

How is making fun of someone hitting a nail on the head? If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it or just move along. I have the right to my opinion and the right for it to be heard. If you have something important to add to this debate, let's hear it. Oh that's right, you all (or should I say mostly like just one) have no independent ideas of your own and just continue to resort to spewing out the same old rhetoric, stereotypical and blanket statements over and over again. It's not productive in the least bit when it comes to defending our rights as breeders. It just shows how small minded you really are. It's more like, "wow I can't think for myself and come up with my own ideas or really answers the questions that are being asked and trying to make me think so I'll take the immature, childish route and just make fun of someone."

My friends know who I am and know that I am writing this. They are very supportive and some have even added their opinion too. I am sure more people support me and are getting what I have to say. They just don't speak up, like a lot of people on here no longer do, because of the attacks and childish behavior of those who have nothing to contribute.

Keep it up. I don't quit. But your behavior bores me. Anything else you can come up with that doesn't portray you as a 10 year old?

So who would you buy a quality puppy from? A broker? A puppy mill, BYB or pet shop that don't do the loads of proper clearances or pedigree research that the reliable breeders do? Most give their dogs+puppies love, attention and proper training for different venues.

You need to re analyze how you would obtain a quality puppy unless you feel you and brokers are the only ones able to breed them.

I wish I knew who you were to be sure I never sell you ANY puppy EVER and that the responsible breeders I know don't either. Then again, I rarely sell my puppies to other breeders unless i know them well for dbl digit years.

My puppies sold every 18 to 24 mo.s is not an industry. It's a hobby to continue my line(s). You tripped over your 'richard', figure it out Ms. Brilliance by claiming it's an industry.
I would rather even a possible show quality puppy lives with a family instead of in a kennel run or crate 24-7 with little attention and/or living in filth as some-many of the Brokers do with the dogs and puppies they have. They give US responsible breeders a bad name. My dogs sleep in bedrooms on beds or on the floor in their heavily cushioned doggy beds. I wonder what BS story you have for where your dogs sleep or where the brokers dogs do.

You sicken me 'idiots' as you call yourselves. I'm done ready this thread further with mullets like you posting within it.

For me personally I would buy my puppy from a reputable breeder because I know better. That breeder would be one who is positive about their dogs and stands behind them without bashing other breeders. There are many other puppy buyers who don't take the time to research where they get their pet from as it doesn't really matter to them. Most are good people and get a good dog that fits their lifestyle.

Again with the generalizing sweeping statements that you really have no clue about personally but it just feels good to bash other breeders/brokers. So what if they breed and keep their dogs differently not all of them abuse them as you want to imply.

News flash** all dog breeding is considered part of an industry especially where legislation is concerned. That is why they want to regulate it so severely that you will no longer be able to have your hobby. Don't think for one minute that this legislation is going to pass you by because somehow you think you are better than other breeders because your dog sleep on cushy pillows. The lawmakers do not listen to that. They hear the terms and language that you guys use against each other and regardless of what it says on the bill breeding restrictions will affect you. why do you think the AKC fight many of the upcoming legislations? Because it will hurt the smaller breeders as well. You guys just don't get it. You would rather fight those who are trying to unite breeders.

Don't worry I would not want a dog from you. I have breeders that I work with. They are positive people. Their dogs are well taken care of. They have all their health clearances. And the breeders are well aware of what we are up against with the animal rights people.

Okay I didn't mean to be so long winded as someone else we know on here ;-)

The feeling is mutual. I am not trying to be snarky, but I would not want to buy a dog from you. At this point, when I screen breeders, part of my screening process is to see where they are when it comes to dog legislation. I know I wouldn't have much in common with someone who is actively working to kill their own rights, along with everyone elses. I really do dread the day when people will have two choices- either a shelter dog or horribly expensive black market purebred.

One more thing- in the eyes of most animal rights people, there is NO SUCH THING AS A RESPONSIBLE BREEDER. That includes you, with your well-bred every 18-24 months litters with all the health checks and genetic testing. It sounds like you have never spent any time reading what ARs and many rescue people think of us. Check out the I Hate Dog Breeders page on Facebook sometime and then make your decision. Are you really standing with those people, and willing to be the baby thrown out with the bathwater?

It is our job as responsible breeders to educate the public, the legislators and the ignorant animal activist supporters that there IS a huge difference between us and commercial breeders. To say we have to stand with mills/brokers despite disagreeing with most everything they do is akin to saying to be pro-child one has to support pedifiles, it's ridiculous.

Talk about ridiculous. That has to be the most ridiculous and outrageous analogy that I have ever heard. Comparing animals to humans is grasping at straws. They are not humans and if people view them as livestock as long as they are well treated and well taken care of they have the right to breed as they see fit. I still do not get the holier than thou attitude that you display. Educating animal rights people is like shooting yourself in the foot. They've heard all of your arguments for Responsible breeders and could care less. The lawmakers do not have time to hear your education. Besides none of us can really I totally agree on what a responsible reader is anyway. If you really want to try to educate animal rights people do as Hot Air suggested and go to the "I hate dog breeders" Facebook page (with over 15,000 supporters). Tell them about how wonderfully you breed and see how fast they shoot you down. Then you come back here and tell us that we need to educate ha ha what a joke

There are so many tolls (or maybe just one) that it's hard to take this thread seriously.

Please- go to the I Hate Dog Breeders page on FB and then come back and tell us we are "tolls" (sic). Start reading the comments on the vast majority of dog related news stories- breeders are all lumped together and are ALL bad. Do you believe that if large scale dog breeders and brokers were put out of business tomorrow, that people who are against breeding dogs would NOT turn to the hobby breeders who are doing everything "right"? There are people on Cafe Press who have bumper stickers for sale that say "Save a dog- kill a breeder." This is our future.

Thank you once again Hot Air and Idiots. I had forgotten about that FB page. It's horrid. It's wrong, but it's what we're up against. Any breeder who believes they are doing the right thing should go and read their propaganda on that hate filled page. It should remind you of some of the breeders on here who spew that same hatred about other breeders who do not breed their way. Some breeders even spew it out against other show breeders.

So I pose some of their sayings to you and would like to know how you argue them. Without telling me the same boring old sayings such as "well I only breed 1-2 litters a year, or I don't make any money breeding dogs, or I always take my dogs back". They've heard them all, they don't care what you say and it holds no water to their emotionally charged mantras of "buy one, kill one", "adopt, don't shop" or when they say that for every dog that a breeder produces, one dies in the shelter. You notice they aren't making any distinctions here. They are simply putting it across that all breeding/breeders are bad and must be stopped.

But I triple dare you as Hot Air and Idiots have said, go to that page. Read what they say. Even give them your example of why you should be allowed to breed when no one else should and see how they react to you. They will eat you alive. They are very passionate for their cause and in their minds all breeding must end. They are very vocal and very active pushing through anti-breeding legislation.

You are equally passionate for your cause and in your mind all breeders are the same. You are very vocal and very active pushing against any anti-breeding legislation. These are your words with a few substitutions. They are on one end of the fanatic see-saw, and you are on the other.

I certainly believe that we breeders - good and bad - have problems with the PETAs of the world but it's the incredibly rude, disrespectful and with this thread at least the complete refusal to have an adult, intelligent discussion of the reasons of how and why. All the name calling does nothing to solidify us and everything to allow PETA to infiltrate and control. We need to carefully promote the better breeders of the world no matter what your view of what a "better" breeder may be and support responsible dog breeding so that we will all be able to enjoy our hobby in the future. I don't have the answer as to how to go about it except to say that being civil and respectful in a debate goes a lot further than the way things are presently going in this thread,

I am not sure I understand what you're saying, but I have already stated that I am passionate about my cause; retaining my rights to breed. If that means exposing the AR for what they are and what their agenda is and trying to wake up breeders to a very real threat, so be it. I make no apologies. Yet you and others continue to mock me. I will not stop. I have too much at stake. My dogs are my life. I don't ever want the government to tell me oops sorry you aren't allowed to breed anymore. We are just steps away from the APHIS rules becoming law and that will affect the way most of us breed and sell dogs.

I do agree with you in a way that if we want to preserve our rights, we all need to become passionate about it. We need to band together. I don't think I've been nearly as rude nor called the names like the so-called reputable have done on here and the way they've treated me on here. It only reflects badly on them. They need to redirect that hatred towards the real enemy here. It's not me. I am simply a messenger.

Although I do disagree with you. I do believe there are different types of breeders, each serve to fulfill a need for dogs. If there are no commercial breeders, who will make up the numbers in demand each year? It is already estimated the 10,000 puppies come up from Mexico just to the San Diego area each year. Many are, as Hot Air put it, black market purebreds. There are no breeding regulations down there. They are smuggled across the border with no health checks either. People buy them off of Craigslist and out of newspapers. They get their puppy and the smuggler is gone never to be heard from again should that person have a problem later on.

I never said that all breeders are the same, but in the eyes of the AR, they are. Those are not my words or my feelings. This is where you are not getting it.

I have never advocated buying a dog from a pet store or broker. Again, those are your words (your being a collective of those negative posters). There are good ones and bad ones, just as with any breeder. All I'm saying is don't judge someone unless you've personally seen how they care for their dogs. Stereotyping, scapegoating and painting every breeder who doesn't breed your way (again a collective ) with the same broad brush does nothing to unite breeders or to making us stronger in the fight.

And if you still think I'm wrong, please go visit that horrible FB page. They are the ones who think all breeders are evil and by the way that page has taken off, they have quite a few people who are joining them and will be fighting against us no matter how we breed.

PETA is not a real threat at this time. Most people know they are pretty nutty. The real threat to breeders, farmers, ranchers, etc is the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). They are also know as PETA in suits. They do not pull the crazy stunts like PETA does. Instead, they quietly work behind the scenes to present bills in state and federal legislative branches aimed at stopping animal cruelty, those horrible substandard breeders, the big farmers, etc. This group is the real threat. They want to end all animal use period.

Here is an interesting status being circulated on FB at the moment: "Just as an FYI to all my FB friends who don't understand about animal rights vs animal welfare - If you want to donate to help animals in the aftermath of the Oklahoma tornadoes, donate to local, boots-on-the-ground organizations. When you get an appeal from HSUS asking for money for their Oklahoma relief efforts, tell them to take some of the Hurricane Katrina money they have socked away in their investment portfolio and use that. If you want your money to actually help those in need, donate to the local shelters and rescues in the area, not the national factory fund-raising groups."~Susan Beals

HSUS uses the majority of their millions in donations for more advertising, salary and pensions, and lobbying. The millions of dollars that go for lobbying is what breeders are up against. How do us small breeders match and fight this alone?

PS name calling? Weren't you the ones calling us tolls (sic)?

I went to the I Hate Dog Breeders Facebook page and it had 19,709 likes. This is a tiny, tiny part of the population of the USA estimated to be 316,668,567 by July 2013. The percentage is .00006%

We must be larger as a group of all dog breeds and breeders than all of the anti breeding groups put together. Does anyone have the numbers of breeders?

I don't believe that any one can say how many dogs breeders there are. The HSUS posed this loaded question to the AKC Spox and even she couldn't answer it. Why is that? What is considered a breeder? Some people just have two dogs they breed. Are they considered a breeder? Do we go by how many USDA licensed breeders there are? There really isn't any way to tell, but I will say this. There are other I love breeders type groups and the largest one I know of has less than 4,000 likes. So if you want to compare the number of those who love us and those who hate us, we are far out numbered by the haters. And they hate us with a passion. I hope you read their comments.

If you go to the HSUS page, they have over 1.7 million likes. They also say they have over 11 million members. Now you're really talking numbers here, not to mention they have money, lots of it. So many of their followers blindly support anti-breeding bills, such as PUPS and the proposed APHIS rules. The HSUS makes it easy for their supporters to sign petitions and form letters and they send them in. They get tens of thousands of signatures at a time. Many of their supporters are so much more active and vocal than we are. This is our problem and if we just sit around thinking it won't affect us, you're dead wrong!

Here's a little background, "HSUS and other animal rights groups have been pushing to expand regulation to include hobby breeders for 15 years. The Doris Day Animal League (DDAL) and PETA pushed for changes in the rules in 1997. DDAL sued the USDA to force them to license and inspect hobby breeders. The lawsuit continued for several years and the USDA eventually prevailed, leaving the “retail pet store” exemption intact. There were also legislative attempts to create laws that would have included hobby breeders in inspections: the Puppy Protection Acts of 2001 and 2003, PAWS in 2005, a Senate Amendment as a rider to the Farm Bill in 2007, “Baby's Bill” in 2008, and PUPS in 2010 and 2011."

You may read the full article here: http://tnpetlawnews.blogspot.com/2012/06/this-article-originally-appeared-in-may.html

I've been watching this thread quietly for a couple of weeks now and I have just one question for Here We Go Again....

Exactly what is your agenda here? Feel free to email me - but please do me the courtesy of not doing so anonymously.

If you've been reading my posts, then you know what I am trying to do. I do not care to take it private. Thank you for the invite though. No agenda here, just trying to bring awareness, unite breeders and stop all the fighting and name calling that breeders do to each other. Trying to get breeders to think how destructive it is and hope breeders will see that and start working towards a common good.

How do you propose we unite if everyone can put their opinions aside?

That's the IF in the whole equation. It's not just looking down at others who do things differently. You saw the response you got from asking what is a broker. There are good brokers and bad ones. Some don't even have to handle dogs to take advantage of others. However, in general terms, a broker is USDA licensed and inspected. They have their own veterinarians on staff and others who work for them. I have seen some very clean facilities and they do in fact sell healthy puppies. But the vocal few on here, still would rather bash them and blanket them all as being substandard, villains.

There still is a demand for purebred puppies in this country despite all the negative publicity that the AR groups are putting out there. Shelter dogs are not for everyone. Dogs from breeders are not for everyone. Some people just want a pretty puppy that will grow up to look something like the breed they bought.

Hobby breeders, responsible breeders, etc just don't produce enough puppies for a the demand. Many of us put our puppy buyers under heavy scrutiny to make sure they will be right for one of our dogs. Many of us have waiting lists a mile long. A lot of people don't want to wait upwards of a year or so to get a puppy. So for them, they go elsewhere.

It's here that we must realize that we aren't the only game in town. It doesn't mean we have to lower our standards, breed more dogs, sell to brokers or pet stores. It simply means we must look at the bigger picture and acknowledge that there will be other types of breeders to fill the demand. They are the breeders who has two dogs in their yard, they are the person who has an oops litter, they will be us, they will be commercial kennels and there will be the substandard breeders who are breaking the existing laws. We all have the right to breed (except those breaking the law) and exist as long as we do it responsibly and take good care of our animals. What one person finds ethical and morally right in their book may not be the same for another breeder, but does that mean they are wrong? To AR, all breeders need to be stopped and that's why we are seeing a huge push in anti-breeding legislation. These groups want to make it cost prohibitive, overly restrictive so that the small breeders will simply stop. They are well funded and well supported.

We on the other hand are not. We focus on the wrong things, use the AR's language and tactics and constantly fight over little things amongst ourselves. I know we are a passionate group and trust me, I've talked to many breeders face to face who are so convinced that anyone who breeds differently from them are our downfall. It's scapegoating, plain and simple. Blaming all these others types of breeders for the laws being presented and being passed (HSUS's CEO brags about getting 1000 laws passed in last decade).

So to finally answer your question and stop contributing to global warming, this is what I suggest we do. We need to start focusing on the bills in our state (you can go to the AKC website and look them up state by state under legislation alerts). Start to see the bigger picture. Catch yourself when you're about to say or use that term. You know the one that basically is applied to substandard breeding facilities. It is a term created by the AR to evoke the images we've all seen of the poor dogs in neglectful situations. We've been brainwashed to allow ourselves to be emotionally manipulated when we hear that term. It's extremely destructive and we even use it against each other if we feel someone breeds too much or simply because we don't like someone. This term is used in most if not all anti-breeding legislation since so much of the public is aware of it too. It helps to get these laws passed as no one wants to see dogs in these types of situations. The bad part is, hardly any one reads these bills. They don't understand how it will affect all breeders and how easily the numbers can be manipulated in later revisions without having to be voted on.

On educating our puppy buyers, focus on the positive. Let them know why you show your dogs, what aspects are important to you as a breeder, what health clearances you do and why, what guarantees/warrantees you offer, follow up education, etc. Keep it positive without bashing other breeders. If you are good at letting your potential buyers know why you do what you do, they will buy from you or look to other breeders who do these things.

Read the AKC legislation alerts, know what laws will affect you and become active in fighting them. Go into the fight with an open mind. If there are other types of breeders fighting them, don't be put off by what you've heard about them. Don't judge them either. The more breeders we have opposing bad laws, the more power we have. Remember the AR groups are well supported with very active members who will be writing and signing petitions as well. These groups are also well funded. They spend millions on lobbyist. Do we even have a lobbyist on our side?

So it boils down to becoming more open minded and more active in opposing these bills. Whether you want to agree or disagree that is your choice. You don't have to agree with other who breed differently from you. I'm not asking that. Just acknowledge that they have just as much right to breed as you and I do. I am only asking you think about your future. Think about all of our future in dog breeding. See the bigger picture. We'll never all be on the same page, but when it comes to retaining your rights to breed or obtain a dog from the place of your choice, coming together to fight for the common good is something we all must consider.

Don't you love when trolls get loose on the forum? As if whatever one says to the other will change anything. Boring.

Dear Nancy,

Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and I am glad that you are thoroughly bored. No one put a gun to your head and made you read. If you are not open to my ideas, than perhaps you should refrain from reading any further posts from me. You have my permission to stop reading them any time.

Change anything? Well sure I hope my information has gotten people to think and change the way the view others. This thread has had over 1450 views. Lots and lots of people are reading it. Just because more haven't come on to show support, doesn't mean they aren't absorbing the information.

Troll? How sweet of you for saying so, especially coming from a paramedic. More name calling and quite frankly very nasty. Thank you for signing your real name and letting me know who I can avoid in the future.

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, you just don't get it do you. The majority here have heard you and still don't agree with you. You have your opinion and have made it very clear, and we have ours. Give your fingers a break. Go clean your kennels, feed your dogs or something useful.

I do get that a few very vocal people on here would love for me to just shut up. I was asked questions on here and as long as people on here want to learn, I will continue. With almost 1500 views on here and only one or two people who use their real names and half a dozen anonymous that could just be one person, that's hardly a majority.

You just continue to prove me right. If those who breed dogs remain silent and let the vocal minority speak for us, we are going down.

Keep up the name calling and I will keep responding and those who actually have something important to add to the debate, please don't let the naysayers put you off.

Thank you very much my kennels are clean and my dogs are all settled in for the night.

Don't think for one minute that the amount of views correlates to the amount of people reading your long winded posts. I skip yours because I've heard your view ad-nauseam. Too much bandwidth IMO. When it comes to archiving to conserve bandwidth I hope this thread is left off. You could state your point more concisely and get off your soapbox to be more impressionable. Move on already. I wish I knew your name so I could avoid you.

Aww but yet you elicit a response from me and must be reading something or you would not have cared enough to comment.

You feel the need to tell me to stop, resort to name calling and other childish behavior yet as you've seen for each comment you've made, I respond and will continue to respond.

I could care less who you are.

As for the number of views, yes, that speaks volumes to me about how many are reading this thread. And like you and probably most of the other anonymous postings more than likely are the same person that is telling me to shut up, you must be reading them in order to come up with a response. Heck you even acknowledged the views as part of your message, therefore, that tells me you read at least that post. LOL

If you want this thread to die and just go away, you'd stop responding, but keep it up and it goes right straight up to the top of the board.

I skimmed through your text I didn't read it. I never called you any names either so quit whining.

You are too much.

Skimming is reading. You're still gleaning information from it.

Whining? I believe that is what all you (and perhaps it's just one or two) naysayers are doing about me writing my posts. You're the one whining about my posts. I'm providing information and responding to posts and questions. Other than the few who object, it has been a pretty good thread. There are also others who have written in on here to show support and offer some good information too.

Like I said, if you don't like what I have to say, don't read it, don't respond to it and don't tell me stop it. I know that's what some people want me to do because they don't want to hear the truth. They'd rather continue believing they are not going to be affected by these bills and therefore can continue to judge other breeders and bash them because they don't breed the same way they do. Old habits die hard.

You people.by posting the way you are ultimately are feeding the AR people, PETA for example. I don't live off my litters, some of you do. Especially brokers or those of you with brokers raising some of your litters for you. It's easily documented who is, check OFA.

So keep talking and bashing other breeders, true hobby breeders on a public posting board and you'll get exactly what you're accusing the smaller breeders of. You'll be taking the true hobby breeders down along with you.

So why don't you discuss all of your opinions privately and stop bragging how much $$$ you earn from breeding in mass to others publicly.

I'm not quite sure I'm reading your post correctly and not sure where you are going, but from what I gather, I must thank you for proving my point. No one here is feeding the AR nuts. They have their minds made up that ALL breeders are bad and need to stop breeding. Blaming and scapegoating brokers and large volume breeders as the reason is totally bogus. This needs to stop. It's just more divisive tactics.

Some breeders make money, that's their choice. It doesn't mean they cut corners or do things with just the bottom line in mind. If anything, if profit is one of their motives, they will make sure their dogs/puppies are healthy since you don't make money selling sick animals. You don't have to like it, but you shouldn't be saying they are not allowed to breed any more. The AR nuts don't like any of us to breed therefore we should no longer be allowed to either? Breeding is not a "breed my way or the highway" option. People are all different and have different ideas of breeding.

I have not seen anyone brag about how much money they make breeding dogs on here. PETA doesn't care whether or not we make money. The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) doesn't care how much or how little any of us make or don't make. They just care that we breed and want to pass laws to make us stop. And again, I see the HSUS as much more of a threat to us that PETA. The HSUS is like PETA is suits. A Radical Animal Rights Group nonetheless. They are a huge lobbying group that bragged they have passed 1000 laws in the past decade. Many of these laws aimed at wiping out the small farmers, the small dog breeders, trying to stop all animal use. You're the second person stating that you think it's just PETA, it's not. It's the HSUS that breeders need to be aware of. I do have to ask, when was the last time you picked up the phone or penned a letter to your elected officials and asked them to vote no on a bad breeding bill?

It is not the brokers and large volume breeders who are going to take the hobby breeder down with them. The hobby breeders will go down all by themselves if they don't put up a fight. If they don't stop fighting amongst themselves, alienating themselves from larger, more powerful groups and wake up. We are too few and too weak to stand up to the HSUS alone.

So many of us were outraged when we watched the Today Show where the HSUS said that AKC breeders keep their dogs in miserable conditions. For the first time many saw how the AR groups just lumped all the breeders in one category. They really do just lump us all together. All breeders are evil in their eyes and they're doing all in their power to pass that on to the public. Did these outraged breeders stay awake or did they just roll back over and fall asleep until the next time we are attacked?

Your opinions are valid and worth considering. Your presentation is threatening and bullying. There are many of us who have written to our state governments and Congress and we are part of the reason that PAWS did not pass several years ago. We are well beyond that now and unfortunately not much better off. Someone who comes on our forum and berates us as you have is not going to win us over to your approach. We are in deep trouble with PETA and the AR but none of us admire high volume breeders and few of us are willing to get into bed with them on these issues. It is truly sad to think that we may have to support them in order to continue on with our own hobbies. Try to come up with another approach and you might get us listening again. I don't have the answers or I'd have said it already.

Thank you for your feedback. I am a very blunt and direct person. I don't sugar coat things. Pretty please does not motivate most people. I make no apologies for the way I come across. Written words are very powerful as are the words themselves. Your forum? I've been on this forum for many, many years. I am not trying to berate anyone. If anything, a few of the other breeders on here are the ones hurling insults at me. Others are the big name callers and trouble makers. I am merely trying to get breeders to see another way to fight anti-breeder legislation and stop fighting each other and other dog people. To stop scapegoating and blaming brokers and commercial breeders for the laws being presented. To stop painting them all with the same broad brush.

But again, it's not just PETA, the HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) is far more our enemy and far more active when it comes to presenting and pushing anti-breeding legislation. We must name our enemy and be aware of who it truly is. Any bill that I see that is endorsed or sponsored by the HSUS whether it be against those horrible substandard dog breeders or some other animal use industry, it will not be good for us. The HSUS is the one to we need to be concerned with. We all know PETA is a bunch of loons.

As for high volume breeders, never once have I asked any of you to accept or support them or crawl in bed with them. Never once have I said to sell them dogs or let them use your stud dogs. I've only asked that you acknowledge they have just as much rights to breed their dogs the way they feel is morally and ethically right for them under the current laws and regulations. I also asked that we stop judging them as a whole and using such blanket statement about them without truly know who they are and how they take care of their animals. Judging them all by photos that we've seen taken by and spread by the AR groups of substandard breeders and/or some well-meaning rescuers that were not able to care for their dogs, is not by any means a true representation of how many of them operate.

Some of the most successful breeders in the ring today, as well as from days gone by, have all kept their numbers high and kept their dogs in kennels. Many of the foundation behind our current dogs are from breeders who bred in high volume. And while I admire the few breeders who have achieved success while only breeding a few litters a year, this is really hard to develop a strong, recognizable line this way.

I'm glad you helped out on PAWS. That was in the early part of the 2000's. Today it's been renamed PUPS and the fight continues. We also have the looming proposal to change the APHIS rules. Masquerading as a way to close the internet loophole it will greatly affect any breeder with more than 4 intact females (not specified as to dog, cat, guinea pig, rabbit, etc) and/or sells one puppy off their property. You will then have to either reduce numbers, never sell any puppy off your property or you will have to become USDA compliant, inspected and licensed as a commercial breeder. Did you write in against that? I know I did but so did tens of thousands of HSUS supporters. Reading their letters were sickening. They used that derogatory breeder slur time and time again. They all urged the USDA to pass these rules as written. Not a single letter from these HSUS supporters I read said "but please spare the hobby breeder". Not one. Go figure.

Wow, this was your best, most normal post yet!!!!!!!!

Maybe i'm suddenly supid and can't read well (never the case before or while at Xxxxxxxx U under grad or at both grad schools I attended.)

I thought this thread was about brokering & another thread had been about The Today Show, AKC, and AR's?

This thread's arguing has upset me. As breeders, we should be working together. Division will only cause us further, near future problems with AR's in my humble opinion although this thread was NOT about AR's. It is or was about Labrador Brokers.

That's the problem. It gets sickening when one person is always hijacking others threads with their own agenda. Start your own damn thread.

Thank you, I think. Practice makes perfect, or at least better. I will debate this issue all day long and it just makes me stronger in my resolve and better in my delivery.


First of all, I'm not here to argue over semantics of a thread. The OP asked a question that was answered with misinformation, hostility, stereotyping and blanket statements.Secondly, IF you reread my posts, you will find that I stay fairly on topic here. I discuss brokers and what they are and what they are not. I am just tired of the sweeping generalizations about them that does nothing but keep people divided. As if the only information you hear about them is bad and propaganda fed to you by the AR groups. Are we really that stupid? Are we too lazy or too blind to be able to figure it out that not everyone fits into the same box? And that maybe it is a few rotten apples that we see over and over again? I have no agenda here. I just want to see people open up and change the stigmas associated with breeding differently than what you've always been told. As I've mentioned before, it's not the brokers or commercial breeders who are to blame for the AR nuts to want to stop breeding. It is only part of their not so hidden agenda to do away with all animal use.


Actually Professor, nowhere was the original post about "Labrador" Brokers. It was simply, as you read above, a question about what are they. Are there Labrador Brokers? Sure there are. Anyone who arranges a sale through a third party is by definition a broker. Are there people in Labs that do this? Yes, I've explained in my earlier posts that I've worked with a few breeders who got dogs for me. I've never had a problem. In the US, and the ones that many commented about on here, are generally USDA licensed, have their own facilities, their own staff, their own veterinarians,etc. They purchase litters or select puppies from USDA licensed commercial breeders to sell to pet stores. The puppies stay at the brokers facilities for health testing, vaccinations, dewormings, and other evaluation. Just because some breeders do not agree with the way they operate, doesn't make it wrong nor should we blindly follow legislation that try to put an end to their businesses. The commercial kennels have just as much legal rights to breed as do we. It becomes a very slippery slope when we start turning over the reins of breeding to our elected officials. This is all I am trying to say. Agree with me or disagree, that is your choice. But I hope I've given some of you out there in Labrador land some food for thought.

I do think you are right Professor, I've been saying it all along, we do need to come together to fight legislation. AKC has a great page for legislation alerts and they give a synopsis of the bills and who they will affect and how. AKC is strongly against using numbers as a criteria for any bill.

You should be upset, we all should be, but not by me or anyone else on here. The arguing and name calling on here is just proves my point about how far we have to go. You are right it needs to stop. That energy would best be spent writing letters, reading about upcoming bills in your area and to further understand the threat we are facing to our livelihoods.

But it all started over the stereotypical posts about brokers. It's still on topic, even though I just want people to learn how destructive this behavior can be.

Or go take pictures, for crying in the night!

You aren't making any sense. Go home poster you're drunk.