When breeders talk about balance, what do they mean?

For me balance has to do with proper proportions as described in the standard. It has to do with the front shoulder/rear assembly angulation and how well they match. Having enough leg under them and a short enough coupling to make a square outline in body or one that is just slightly square. It is a strong topline that stays stays straight and true with the tail being an extension of that topline. It is a dog that has a nice reach of neck that appears to be able to reach down to pick up game. He should have enough bone to support a fair amount of substance without being overdone and enough coat to fill him out and give that nice thick otter tail. His head should be clean, with a good depth of muzzle and parallel planes. It should not appear overdone or too large for the body. When every thing "balances" the dogs gives the appearance of having proper proportion and outline.

A dog that is short in leg and long in body will look off balance. A dog with a huge head, light bone will look off balance. A dog with a straight front and lots of angulation on the rear will look off balance. It's all about developing an eye to put everything in perspective and seeing what is right. When you develop the eye for that, a dog that is well-balanced in all aspects will jump out at you in the ring every time.

Actually, using the term of "straight" top line is misleading. You want a "level" top line where the withers and rear are the same height. Nowhere does the standard say that the back should be "straight", implying a flat line from withers to tail. You need flexibility in the spine and, by necessity, there should be a link behind the withers which allows for the dog to swim easily while holding a heavy bird. If you want a "straight" top line....look at a German Shepherd. Many times, in trying to achieve a "straight" top line, people breed a dog which ends up with a tilted pelvis and overly short croup.

It all fits together. Head not too big, tail too short or long, or legs too short or long ... basically you know it when you see it. Some dogs have great heads, but lack the rest of the package. Looking at a Field Lab today would be an unbalanced Labrador with legs too long for the body. Or some Show types with legs too short for the massive upper body.

like this winner a Crufts. He may look to some to be rather "Fat", but he is not when viewed from the top. He's just a big balanced boy.. Very powerful, everything about him screams "Labrador retriever" From the kind face, topline, to the tip of his tail.

Also when in motion you see the ease of motion, in such a way you can envision a days hunt in the field without breaking down.

Dog Shows are limited in explaining balance because the dog is on a leash and at trot. Many Labs can look great at trot, but not run great. One has to use your imagination that what you see in a stack and trot will translate to a full out run. That is why it would be nice to see hunt titles on any CH. After all Labs are "Gun Dogs"

This video shows one of the top Labs today and his balance. It all fits. Many well known Labs are like this one, it is just a great video for Lab lovers to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS2dUCZhmcs

Balance to me is when you see a dog across the ring or in a picture and the front end, matches the rear. If you put your hand on the picture in the middle of a dog does the rear look totally weak and small compared to the front. That is what I see alot. Big front, good or not and a rear without the nice turn and thigh to match. Or a wonderful rear and just no front, no lay back on shoulder. Or balance could be a dog with not much front or rear but at least, they match.

Oh give me a break MG and mind your own business. When someone takes the time to answer a question as thoroughly as Breeder82 did, is it really necessary to pick it apart? Level, straight, we know what they meant. Why didn't you answer the question instead of just playing breeder police?

Gee whizz someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Who put a bug up your as.....never mind.
Level and straight are NOT the same. Not picking anything at all apart, as it was a decent answer except for the misuse of terminology. Take a nap,dear. You need one.

Give it a rest Maureen, your elitist attitude is why people don't seek your advice nor appreciate it when you give a know-it-all response.

The Breeder who responded said "For me". We all have our preferences. I don't believe this person was going into detail of the topline as described in the standard, but rather how they see balance. I tend to agree and understand that straight meant the topline was not dippy behind the withers or roachy over the loin or with a rounded croup or low tailset. I prefer a dog with a straight topline myself.

So really Maureen, you say tomato, I say tomato.

Proper tailset is very important to consider and is often misunderstood.

Also to those who negatively replied to this post If you have the gall to call someone out by name, have the guts to give your own.

What exactly is a link? A different kind of vertebrae? A vertebrae out of alignment? A fallacy? I have never seen this term in any anatomy book. Why do you think this is necessary for a dog to 'swim easily while holding a heavy bird'? I see dogs without what you are calling a 'link' and they have no problem swimming while holding a heavy bird. I think what your seeing is an improper front or a variation of the spinous process of the vertebrae in an individual dog and has nothing to do with function.

For me, balance is so much more that just proportions. An elusive quality, it may seem more tangible than "type" or "quality", since elementary geometry plays an important role in the concept but, without finish, even the best designed chassis will lack balance.

Perfect balance is a thing of beauty: matching angles fore and aft are only part of the equation. A tail that is too short or held badly, a neck that doesn't "fit" its body, legs that are not in proportion with the trunk all can mar balance. Even then, centre of gravity comes into play. When looking at a dog free standing, I often project the scenario of what would happen if I gave it a tap on the rump. Ideally, it is standing well over its forelegs and would move forward with a solid thrust of strong hock. This won't happen with the rocking-horse that posts and hyper-extends, nor with the sickle-hocked dog, nor with the bantam-cock that is puffed up in front, etc. etc.

I would like old timer to clarify that one sentence as well. Since the rest of the paragraph makes perfect sense and seems to be right on, I suspect that this particular sentence may also be valuable and I didn't quite understand what was meant by it.

Many old timers talk about how there should be a slight dip after the whithers and that this is important for swimming. I have never understood why. I think maybe that is what was meant by "link"???

The part I liked about this paragraph is that it is consistent with what I am seeing with croups. The tail should flow from the croup. The statement I often hear that the tail should come straight off the back makes no literal sense. But if someone is considering the croup as part of the back, and if you replace the word "straight" with "flow", then I get it I guess. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a croup. There should be a croup which should gently curve downward, off of which the tail should flow.

I am not an 'old timer' but I am getting old!

Someone asked for an old timers opinion. Linda Oldham was one of my mentors. I wish I could say she still was here to help, but she did leave me with some things to remember.

She called that slight drop behind the withers the 'swimmers dip'. She always looked for it. And then looked for level from there to the tail. Not level or straight from the withers to the tail.

She also taught me that a forechest or prow should just fill the palm of your hand when you cup it. One that stands out too far, not from hair, is incorrect. But, it could belong to a balanced dog! To make this relevant to the conversation!

I never saw one of her dogs from the last 20 years without a swimmers dip.

That is just one or two things I was taught by a wonderful woman.

Sue Puff

And no where in the standard does it say there should be a link or dip behind the withers! Nor does it say there should be flexibility in the spine, only "However, the loin should show evidence of flexibility for athletic endeavor."

I prefer the "strong, level topline from withers to croup" which for me would be "straight" line from the withers to croup. We all have or preferences and while you want to interject your preferences that's your choice. I prefer a straight topline, one that is strong and level. To me this is what helps complete the outline and balance of a dog.

" We all have or preferences and while you want to interject your preferences that's your choice."

And interjecting yours is certainly your choice. I prefer to defer to the wisdom of the likes of Mary Roslin Williams, Linda Olham and George Bragaw, among other true icons of our breed, who understood the correct use of terminology and the purpose of the functionality of correct structure.

If anyone has ever seen an improperly made dog struggle to keep his head up while retrieving a heavy bird in swimming water, they would be reminded of Mary Roslin-Willams' stern words that the dog is "working despite being poorly made".

First of all, I was not interjecting my preference. I answered the OP's questions, stating my preference not interjecting on someone else's words or preference or trying to correct them using their own personal preference as well. If you want to quote the standard, it's been quoted and the link or dip behind the withers in NOT in the standard.

I have seen plenty dogs handle larger birds with straight toplines. I have seen plenty of field dogs with some of the most atrocious conformation out perform show bred dogs who adhere to the standard because they are bred to handle the work through their instincts and drive. I always say they function despite their form. A dog is not going to have a more difficult time with a straight topline, that is purely anecdotal.

Here is what the other Retriever Standards say about topline:

Golden Retriever: "Backline strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted." They even call for a slightly sloping croup that the Labrador Standard doesn't even describe.

Flat-Coated Retriever: "Topline strong and level". It goes on to also call for a slightly sloping croup.

Curly Coated Retriever: " Backline--The back, that portion of the body from the rear point of the withers to the beginning of the loin, is strong and level. The loin, that part of the body extending from the end of the rib cage to the start of the pelvis, is short and muscular. The croup, that portion of the body from the start of the pelvis to the tail set-on, is only slightly sloping."

You may want to remember your mentors and the advice they gave certainly fit the dog of the day, but the style of dog they bred would have a hard time finding a ribbon in the ring with today's dog. Most I see winning all have a straight, strong, level topline and a tail set right off the back. In fact the standard states: "The tail completes the balance of the Labrador by giving it a flowing line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail."

Lastly for what it's worth, reading through the definition of level in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, straight is a word "related" to level in the adjective form and "Synonym Discussion of LEVEL

level, flat, plane, even, smooth mean having a surface without bends, curves, or irregularities. level applies to a horizontal surface that lies on a line parallel with the horizon . flat applies to a surface devoid of noticeable curvatures, prominences, or depressions . plane applies to any real or imaginary flat surface in which a straight line between any two points on it lies wholly within that surface . even applies to a surface that is noticeably flat or level or to a line that is observably straight . smooth applies especially to a polished surface free of irregularities ."

Yes, at certain points in history there can be a big difference between breeding correct dogs and breeding dogs like those that are doing the most winning. All breeders have to make that decision. Obviously, we all want to do both.

It is important to note that the word "straight" does not appear in reference to toplines in any of the retriever standards given. And also it is common to read that croups should be slightly sloping (neither straight nor steep).

Yes we want correct dogs that win (and mine do), but looking over any breed that has a long history, they have made improvements and changes that may or may not be in the best interest of a breed. I do love that our dogs today have much better shoulder layback and proper upper arm as well as better turn of stifle and bend to the hock. I personally like to see the straight topline and tail straight off the back as so many of mentors would point out. However, I do think that some of them are way too much and resemble a short coated Newfoundland. I do not go along with that trend and hope that some breeder continue to breed the improvements but without all the overdone heads, bone and substance. But we all know that stands out in the ring and yes, it does win too.

The reference to a slightly sloping croup does NOT appear n the Labrador Retriever standard and hasn't for 20 years now. In fact as I pointed out it says the "flowing line" which as I would interpret it to mean a continuous line without dips or links or whatever else language one prefers to use that is also not in the standard.

My use of the word straight as it "relates" to level is quite acceptable as it would imply there are no dips, no sway or roach to the back.

To me, the term "flowing" means that there is no break or interruption in the top line from the top of the head to the tip of the tail. Since this includes the neck, there has to be "flowing movement" not a flat line. On a correctly made dog the top line flows down the arched neck over the bump of the withers, along the back and down the gentle slope of the croup to the proper tail set, neither too low or too high.

If there is a *bump* somewhere in a continuous line, well then I'd say it would stop at the bump and no longer be continuous! LOL

Are the withers of your dog set higher than his back? The topline flows from the top of the head, where the ears are located, to the set of the tail. Of course this is not a flat line, it flows along the contours of the dog's anatomy.

A well-laid shoulder will not be prominent. So no I don't want to see a bump on my dog's back. I want a smooth (my word) continuous flowing line. That is what completes balance according to the standard.

You will also see true balance as that same balanced dog moves, effortlessly, smoothly.

The dog has no more in the front assembly than the rear assembly. Besides proper balance, how about discussing type which most judges prefer to see even more then balance.

JP described balance perfectly referring to mathematics.

Some dogs are over-loaded in the front and missing the same in the rear or the opposite. Thigh and double thigh are important as well as proper front assembly which is overlooked today. A winning dog that is put up over and over has poor front assembly yet the breeders ooo and aaa about him. He has a straight upper arm. It does not match his rear. It takes many generations to fix a front, don't ruin a good front by breeding to a dog with a straight or short upper arm.

well said!!!