I love Labradors . I thought I'd done my research about the difference between Show and Field . Now I see "Show" breeders are selling AI to "Silver" breeders who are just the same as puppy mills and it makes me wonder how much better are the "Show" type breeders then the neighbor down the block who bred her two Labradors with no clearances.

I was going to pay $1,200.00 for a beautiful "Show" type pup but now feel the ethics of Show" breeders are very suspect. How in the world do I know for sure the breeder I am dealing with has never sold pups to a "Silver"breeder ? I just do not want to support these breeders who claim a Labrador is Silver or Champagne when the standard states that Labs are Black, Yellow, or Chocolate.

How can I tell who the "Ethical Breeders" are and who are not? I seem to have lost my trust .

You don't sound like a puppy buyer.

You don't sound like a puppy buyer. And not all "show" breeders are created equal, just like not all all field breeders are either. Do your research (if you truly are a buyer), go to shows and make a connection with a breeder who's dogs you like. If you dig long and hard, you can find connections. But also note, that some great breeders get "duped" by unscrupulous people too.

Well you haven't researched too much ;) Field breeders sell EVERYTHING on full registration... look at some silver pedigrees, you'll see 10 field dogs for every showbred dog.

This is not a puppy buyer. Somebody just knocking us down. Well trying.

And not all silver breeders are back yard breeders or puppy mills. Both of the latter do no health clearances nor understand or care about the health of the dogs. Many silver breeders do health clearances. Color nor breed of dog have much to do with it.

You want a breeder who does health clearances and properly socializes their dogs. Ask how they socialize their puppies. You want a breeder who takes care of their dogs and puppies. Ask what care and vet visits puppies will have. Ask to see copies of certificates for health clearances or see if they are on the OFA website: hips, elbows, eyes, EIC, CNM, PRA, and hearts. If they can't present the certificates look for another breeder. Ask for references from previous puppy buyers.

If you are concerned about breeder ethics, it is very easy to see who is either not doing due diligence in screening buyers, or who are purposely selling to Silver breeders. The silver breeders are ecstatic when they get "named" show lines, and they advertise it far and wide. Look at some of the "Silver Labrador breeder" pages on Facebook and the web. It is all there; pedigrees, names, etc.

Would anyone think less of me if I decided to adopt a Senior Lab from someone like Joe Maringo who runs S.P.A.R.R.O.? I've donated money over the years and love what he does for the old timers.

I had my heart set on a new pup, but my wife saw the threads about unethical breeders on this site, where she found a breeder she liked . She said she is not going to do business with anyone who would keep the puppy mills in business. She sees the Silvers as a huge scam. It seems even the "Well known" breeders are doing business with them

I think it best to trust the adoption process right now until the AKC gets this Silver business under control. I had wanted a "Grady" pup for hunting and the wife talked me into a more "Gentleman's"type of Labrador.

Back to the drawing board. Happy wife, happy life.

The color issue aside, until and unless the AKC sets standards for ALL puppies it registers, it makes better sense to adopt or rescue a Labrador.

Adoption of a senior Lab from any breeder can work IF you're prepared to deal with any of the consequences. The big question to ask any breeder of an adopted older dog is if the dog has been socialized. A show title and lots of showing does not necessarily count as proper canine socialization. Also, ask about the stress levels a bitch may have had to endure as a mother (i.e. how many litters at one time did the breeder have happening from several bitches all at once.) You need to ask if a bitch was used in back-to-back breeding. This could determine some future health issues you may need to deal with, something which can be a truly good deed but also too expensive for some people.

My hope is that the AKC can establish standards for all of the dogs it registers as some folks are also clearly not cut out for the challenges that a rescue or adopted older dog can present. However, take your time and ask lots of questions of lots of breeders and pet owners. Don't be afraid to say "no," and get yelled out for rejecting someone's dog. In the end, you have to do what is best by the dog you agree to provide a home for. If you can't do so, hold out in rescue and/or keep calling more breeders for other available dogs. Rescue adoption coorindators will usually give you all the time you need to find the dog which fits your lifestyle best. Persevere and be persistent. Ethics do matter. You know in your heart what is right or wrong. Just don't take any insults personally. It may not be the best time to buy a puppy, but you could be a good puppy rescue Mom or Dad. Best of luck!

This is not a puppy buyer. Sounds more like someone with an axe to grind!

Troll alert....

This can't be a puppy buyer. We all know they are too stupid to do research on a breeders forum. They either walk into a pet store or answer a classified in their local paper for a BYB Lab.

LOL. This is some breeder who has been duped by a Silver breeder. The general public does not care about our ethics. They care about the cute little fuzz ball and it could have all types of issues and once they have the pup none will return it.

So what if some of our fellow breeders breed just for color, or made a buck or two on stud fees without doing their homework. Labs are the # 1 dog everyone wants. Suckers are born everyday.

Kill this troll, he surely is not making his wife satisfied.

I just put a down payment on a Grady Pup found on the RTF forum. My wife gave in when she saw me moping around.

What's best about this, the "Field" breeder is selling him with a full registration and making no demands of neutering. I think "Grady" produces great pups and I am going to be so happy out hunting Pheasant with him next fall. This is one happy day. Sometimes things work out for the best.

I am certainly glad I did not have dealings with some of you breeders. Your a tough crowd. At least the RTF forum was very helpful finding me the right pup. My wife said what changed her mind was she found some threads saying Grady pups are as nice a house pet as they are out in the field working. I may even hire a pro trainer if he shows he could be a champ. But all I really care about is his drive to hunt. He could turn out bad at hunting, but at least he should have Grady's good looks.

Best of all he is Black. I've always wanted a Black Lab since I was a child. No Silver Labs for this hunter.

You guys probably don't know who Grady is. Here is the link to one great Labrador.This is costing me big time for a pup, but you get what you pay for.

Some of you breeders should use him to get your lines more athletic looking.

http://www.paddlecreekretrievers.com/grady.htm

Good luck with that!!! You have a lot to learn.

I have no problem with leaving the boys intact. However, I will not sell them on full registration.

Way to make a good impression on someone who is actually not "too stupid" to research on this forum. Wake up, Exactly. Your out-of-date thinking is showing. You live in the age of technology. There are generations of puppy buyers for whom research on the Web is as natural as breathing.
Yes, some people still do as you say, but lumping all puppy buyers together is just plain wrong. Your attitude needs a serious adjustment.

Well said Kate!

I am not a breeder but I know Labrador pedigrees quite well. I must say I am very offended by the "Stupid" comment in regards to puppy buyers or pet people. Instead of using offensive labels in regards to people who are looking for information try a little kindness and offer sound advice. A little kindness goes a long way!

I believe that this puppy person was going to get a Grady puppy the entire time. This is probably an advertisement by the stud dog owner for his dog. Why else would they post the link for the dog who cares we don't use field Dogs for our conformation pedigrees. This person is trolling.

Its really too bad that this dog doesn't meet breed standard in any way (except that he's black).
Best of luck to this puppy buyer with a dog like in the house. My guess is he will spend a lot of time alone outdoors...

Oh my.

Grady is 10 times any "Show" dog when it comes to birds. Just keep breeding to the "Silvers"

Sister . Bring it on. At least Grady produces field Champs. How many have you produced?

Grady brings the "Gold"

When you breed for looks, what have you sacrificed? Hunting ability. Last time I looked, Labradors were a Gun Dog.

You are correct. We , the Show breeder's have lost our way. As also the Field breeders. The Lab was made to be of use in the Ring and the Field.

Some Show breeders took the $$ from from "Silver" breeders and their Kennel names are forever etched in Stone. Only now can we make the perfect Labrador. One meant for structure and field.

Make the Lab as intended !!!!!

I don't know what planet your from but the show labs have not lost hunting ability! Show labs are much more versatile than field dogs hands down. A lab is supposed to be a water dog and not an upland field dog. Field labs should be called something else because they have morphed into something that doesn't look or act like a Labrador. Field dog breeders don't take their puppies back for a reason.

You must be speaking about yourself and your labs. My labs are bred for what they are intended to be.

Thank you Show Breeder for your reply! I'm not sure I agree with all of your points but one of them I do as follows. Whether or not someone on the Forum is a fraud or not is not the main issue. The primary issue presented is valid and credible: if there are show-quality silver Labs, the English Lab part has to be coming from somewhere.

Pet owners do care about preserving the Labrador Retriever breed and can provide invaluable input to what is clearly a current crisis in dog breeding. We have had experiences which breeders may not know about, and we have actually been thanked by good breeders for sharing our experiences with them. Listen to us!

An on-line forum may not be the best place to address all of these issues, but it is my hope that good English Lab breeders are discussing these topics amongst themselves. Good pet owners are doing so when we walk our Labs together. We care about this breed, and we want to be puppy buyers again. In the mean time, we do not want to support any defunct practice in need of standards. It is the reality now that English Labs are more readily available at least in some rescues, for whatever reason. There is no need to purchase one until many of these ethical issues are resolved. Moreover, so-called "field Lab" breeders do have a reputation for being kinder to their potential customers - a real life experience. Please do not take us for granted and instead include us in your discussions. Thanks and the best to everyone!

And BTW, I have yet to see a silver dog that has anything correct on it for showing. Sheesh, folks with the most fantastic real Labradors still have tough competition. There is so much wrong with the silvers from eyes to general conformation...it's a bloody shame they are called Labradors.

Trust me this guy is not Grady's owner. He needs not advertise- he gets plenty of use without ads. Grady is a house dog, so are many of his offspring per reports of owners on the RTF. He is a NAFC and his son is also a NAFC. He gets a hefty stud fee and only breeds to titled females and not just a JH. He isn't perfect in his conformation, but does have a proper double coat as reported by some show breeders that have seen him.
Very few on either side of the extreme (field or show) really have "perfect" dogs.

And Labrador retrievers were bred to be retrieves, not just waterfowl but upland birds. Maybe you need to look to the British a bit more for the purpose of the Lab.

All this stuff about Grady is interesting... kind of like the Chinese proverb, "May you live in interesting times."

Truth is, any field bred retriever - not just a Lab - should be pretty damned birdy. There are a ton of show-bred Labs that are, also. If you don't give a damn about "looks" just "hunting drive" you can pick up any old thing. But if you want a Labrador Retriever bred to the standard that can work, you've barked up the wrong tree. I know these folks love their field bred Labs, but when the head and muzzle looks like they could lick the last drop of Coke from the bottom of the bottle there's an issue, at least for me. As someone once said, "Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog."

I think we need to get way from calling dogs "ugly". That is rude and is subject to individual interpretation. There are several droopy eyed specialty winners with overly deep foreheads, too much jowl and far too much open coat and bone with chests that drop too far below the elbow standing on out-of-proportion short legs. Despite the fact that certain breeders and judges like this, these dogs are also incorrect and do not meet the breed standard. I would consider these dogs too ugly to hunt with also (not to mention not functional), but beauty is often in the eye of the beholder. Everyone loves their dog. I think we can discuss the standard without being rude. Personally, I believe it takes structure, type, temperament, work ethic and good health to produce a good representation of the breed standard, and the easiest way to get there is to take all of it into consideration when breeding. It is much easier to breed for pieces and unfortunately, this is the path many people take, which is why we have such a mix of styles within this breed.

Well said. No Lab is ugly. well maybe the beady eyed Silver's . LOL

This is an interesting topic. Ethics. There are a lot of good breeders on both sides of the fence. Some with more ethics then others.

I know myself it was very disturbing to see well known names in connection to the "Silver", breeders. Maybe they were duped, or there are some false web sites with bogus pedigrees being offered up. I mean can you really trust anyone breeding "Silvers"?

I know one thing that ticks me off is using any male or female for breeding before the age of two years old. They can look great at a year old and completely change by two years old. Then the answer one gets in threads is why not, you are never going to see what you "Get" What you can get is inferior examples of the breed that go out to pet homes with no keeper.

Another "Ticks me off" . Show breeders saying a dog like "Grady" is not an example of a Labrador. He may look different then your "Show" dogs, but he produces champs. No different then the great "Arnold", just a different venue.

And lastly. If breeding Labradors, what a shame if you don't take them out to the field setting and teach them to hunt. Nothing will teach you about proper structure and function then seeing a good Labrador work the fields. Nothing in this thread was so wrong as to saying the Labrador is not an upland retriever. He should excel on the uplands as well in the ocean or lake.

A Labrador is meant to be versatile and can be used as an upland retriever but a lab bred to standard is structured to be a water retriever. Change the primary purpose and you need to change the structure = field labs = not what a Labrador was intended to be.

Per the 1st paragraph in the current AKC Standard:

The Labrador Retriever is a strongly built, medium-sized, short-coupled, dog possessing a sound, athletic, well-balanced conformation that enables it to function as a retrieving gun dog; the substance and soundness to hunt waterfowl or upland game for long hours under difficult conditions; the character and quality to win in the show ring; and the temperament to be a family companion.

The standard specifically states the dog can be used for upland. If this is truly built to be a waterfowl hunter only, the standard should reflect that, as people should be breeding and judging to the standard. Perhaps this is why so many judges are confused about this breed.....

The owner of Rudy a while back posted that he had completed his Master Hunter test.

http://marjolabradors.weebly.com/rudy.html

I believe only 60 or 61 Labrador Retrievers have ever won a bench CH as well as completing their Master Hunter test.

Rudy comes from some very often used bench Labradors. His structure does not stop him in the field. Two You Tube videos are on the link page.

Could Rudy keep up with the likes of a National Field Champ like Paddle creeks "Grady", most likely he would not have the style or speed. But Grady would never win a Bench Championship.

Both are beautiful Labradors. It is just that the Field Trial Games have made for a more specialized Labrador.

Doing upland hunting or waterfowl should be no issue for any Labrador.

When you breed for looks you also give up fertility, as well as hunting instincts (sometimes…cudos to breeders who do multi titles!). This is a topic that could be a whole new thread. When did we stop choosing bitches (for instance) for their ability to be a good brood bitch AND a good show dog…we don't. Litter sizes and normal pregnancies and births are really sad in pure bred dogs.

Yep, troll alert…

Pretty soon no one will be safe…those that have 'red" labs..are we suddenly going to scorch the show breeders in their pedigrees? or the people who advertise as "white" labs…I mean where does it end?

Bottom line, troll or not. We can only control our own efforts to breed quality Labradors. We each decide which parts of the breed standard we consider important. Some want to produce the perfect dog for individual venues. Others want a more rounded Labrador.

Mary Roslin-Williams is no longer walking the Earth, and she is not able to pass along her wisdom today. Times change in the course of all things. Who is to say that the "Rare" Silver Labradors will not be the Labrador of choice tomorrow.

There are many more average breeders today, then the ones Roslin-Williams mentions in her books.

so true!!

I am not impressed with the heritability of fertility. A girl I bred five times gave me only one puppy (a Ch CD RA JH WC -it was worth it!) This daughter had three normal sized litters with no issues. I bred two of her daughters. Granddaughter #1 gave me three litters, never missed, but the litters were small (6, 4, and 2 puppies). Granddaughter #2 gave me a litter of 10 from her only breeding AFTER I didn't get the girl I wanted from her sister, so she was older than I normally breed. A daughter of #1 just had her first litter of 8 puppies. A daughter of #2 missed for her first breeding, probably a timing issue.

I had another girl who took two breedings to have her first litter of 11 puppies, and then followed with litters of 11 and 12. One of her daughters was bred three times. all litters of 3 or 4. Another daughter never got pregnant despite multiple breedings. Granddaughter #1 has now had a litter with more puppies- don't own her and don't remember the exact number. They did lose some of those puppies. I kept granddaughter #2 from a different breeding- no puppies so far in two attempts. I have treated for mycoplasma and will put her on antibiotics for her next attempt. For at least one breeding it was not an issue of timing, as she visited the stud dog for a long time.

Do you see a pattern here? I don't!

I've noticed that with the line breeding done in many show lines, the litters are very small and the bitches are not very fertile, and have lots of complications.

I haven't seen fertility problems with line bred bitches at all. Pregnancy and litter size has much more to do with age, timing and semen motility than whether a bitch is is line bred or out crossed.

I have never seen a show quality silver Lab. They all have more Weimaraner qualitiest then Lab. I have been to hunt tests and the show type Labs are calmer and more focused and more and more show Labs are earning hunt titles then ever before. Also, none of the reputable show breeders sell pups on full registration. I tell my buyers that there are already too many Labs in shelters because puppy mills abound and they don't care if the pups they sell are used for breeding. If I sold pups on full registration I would have trouble sleeping worrying about any consequences. Parents of our litters all have many clearances and that and temperament are the first things we look for when we choose the sire and dam for a litter. We don't just put two dogs together to make money on a litter.

Good job!

I have a tightly line bred bitch that had 3 litters total, 7, 8 and 9 puppies respectively. It's all in proper timing once again, not line breeding or outcrossing. Genetics are a possibility, for example if the bitch line had small litters and so did her dam. Other than that 1 has nothing to do with the other.

troll