I'm looking for comments and advice on a puppy. Last night a family called me about a puppy which is 13 months old. I had said I'd pay for entropian repair (eyes have been tacked already) if it hadn't resolved by a year. Well pup started limping yesterday, they took pup to their vet. A visiting ortho surgeon was there. They did $700 of x-rays alone! Visiting surgeon said pup need an ACL repair, bilateral knee repair and hip replacements as pup is severely dypsplastic!! He was healthy aside from eyelids until yesterday when limp began!

The family lives 1 hour from me. I'm having them bring pup to my vet for the entroptian repair and I'll have my vet do hip x-rays for OFA and get their opinion. If hips are moderate or severe, I'll refund. Sound fair? The family did mention - "He can't even get on the bed and jump off anymore." I am very specific with families not to jog with pups or let them jump off a pick up bed, etc.

How would you handle this situation? I think the vets are hunting for business and see $$$$.

What is in your contract? Contracts can be oral or written, so what did you say or write down about hip warranties, or lack thereof? You could do more than your contract stated, but to do less wouldn't be fair, would it?. You should also check the pet lemon laws if your state has any.

If you had no hip warranty, and if the puppy actually has dysplasia at all: As a puppy buyer, I think even Mild plus a limp at only a year old should be a good enough reason to do a refund. Maybe it would be different if he came up mild at a later age and had no lameness. However if they have been jogging with the puppy all of this time, then I'm not sure they should get a refund because that is a pretty quick way to mess up joints. Do you know if they jog?

As far as the xray cost, $700 seems like a lot for xrays, I had hips and elbows done for OFA by a nationally known ortho vet who happens to be based in my area, for $240, are you sure some of that wasn't a consultation fee or something?

I'm having x-rays sent to my vet and will most likely do x-rays for OFA with him. I have a hard time believing that a pup who was fine until a day ago, suddenly has all that wrong with him. The pup's vet also mentioned something congenital with the back. The called me 2 weeks ago about training pup not to pull off mittens and gloves and pup was doing 'great' then without any issues, now all of this with no previous symptoms?! I can't wait until my own vet looks at the x-rays and gives his opinion.

I would say At 13 months if the pup is " severely" dysplastic there would have been some indication well before 13 months, I am picking it has done its cruciate which make the puppy very lame, would be very interested to know what your vet finds.

"He can't jump off and on the bed anymore"


OMG, this reminds me of a buyer that called me saying they wanted a refund for their severely Dysplastic pup, but when I called their vet, she said the pup had been brought in because of an injury of falling of a BED! People do STUPID stuff with pups, then come back to us the breeders and expect us, the breeder, to pay their bills, like we are some credit card to use…they manipulate us…feed on our desire to be "good, good, breeder" or else they will "slander us" blah, blah, blah…do your homework and make sure you are not being taken by some idiot.

OK, so my vet has looked at all of the x-rays, and there is nothing unusual. They are very clear, but nothing amiss?! So I'm giving the family two options. 1. Send the digitals on to Michigan State veterinary school's radiologist and have him give a written report/opinion on each of the 9 done or have preliminary OFA's done on just the hips. My contract only covers hips and eyes.

My vet said one the x-rays actually measured the area the heart takes in the rib cage. She said we don't have the whole picture of why all the x-rays were done. Was there an injury? Why x-ray the chest for a limp?! She raises and shows curly coat retrievers, has some with CH and MH titles. Her advice is to not give back a dime until we have further input and a clear report of why all the x-rays were really done. I'm going to phone the family's vet myself and get the vet's report of why the family initially came in. It's really weird. I still like the family, but somewhere there is misunderstanding or miscommunication or something. Anyway, right now I'm relieved the x-rays look fine to my vet.

If I were you, I'd ask for the dog back and give them a full refund to go away.

If the x rays look great to your vet, could the puppy have pano? That would cause limping.

x rays won't confirm a cruciate tear - the vet needs to do the drawer test and tibial thrust test...
good luck with this puppy.

I only guarantee hips on Severe HD, diagnosed ONLY through OFA. I put that in writing and that's what they sign, whatever it's worth.

If they want you to address the hip issue, they need hip xrays done that will suffice for OFA submission.

There's a limit on what a breeder is responsible for and what dog ownership means. I'd be more than happy to refund up to purchase price for a dog with Severe HD diagnosed by OFA. Once they get that and bring it to me, they we can talk $$.

Money should be the least of your worries here. You are doing the right thing about getting the puppy checked by your own vet. A greedy Vet can put this puppy through horrible pain in order to get the dough.
Then, if this puppy indeed has all these, or some of these, problems you should reconsider your breeding parents.
Your responsibility goes up to a total money re-fund, but it all depends on what you have in your contract. I would never give a replacement puppy to this family.

Good luck and I hope the puppy is not so bad.

That's just why I don't guaranty at all but if there is a problem, I ask families to let me know and we'll figure it out. As breeders, once the puppy leaves we don't know what is happening in the home as closely as we screen the families.

Years back I had a girl homed with avid hikers that promised not to hike her until age two. They signed that they wouldn't do it. By 9 months she had torn both of her CCL's. They blamed me, called when she was 10 months and threatened to put her down. We were heading to their home to retrieve her and get the surgeries done that they caused when they pulled back the threats and did each leg one at a time. They demanded another puppy they could hike from a young age to replace her. I was appalled! I refused to place another puppy with them and did not contribute towards the surgeries. They caused it by going against all I asked of them, working in any exercise slowly and not mountain hiking her until age 2.

So there are many sides to these stories sometimes. State lemon laws are normally no more then 6 months. I guaranty I am handing the family a healthy puppy and if found not to be to return the puppy immediately for a full refund. I have my vet do vaccines, micro chips and full health exams so I'm not talking out my behind about the health of the puppy. I ask their vet to confirm the same within a few days. If there is a problem they are supposed to contact me. The only time there was a problem was with the girl with the 2 torn cruciates by 9 to 10 months. I've been lucky but also go to great lengths confirming health with a vet, waiting 4 days after 1st vaccinations at 8 weeks at the least for the puppies to begin going to their homes. More work for me but it turns out better in the long run.

PS If anesthesia is used, OFA radiographs can cost that much but I would want to see them and have my vet look too or repeat to confirm that the dog was placed properly.

tighten up your contract….I think you have learned from this.
always require a 2nd opinion of your choice
always require your vet of choice do ANY tests, etc, if your vet is more affordable.
Pray.

Hips came back OFA prelim EXCELLENT!! I'll always insist my vet does the x-rays and sends in to OFA if I have any report of "dysplastic" again. I paid for the x-rays and OFA fee and it was well worth it. The family lives 1 hour away and took ages to get pup in to my vet because limp and all symptoms went away after a few days, but so glad we insisted on my vet prior to a surgery or fees back etc. We are revisiting our contract after this incident.

If the puppy stays with this family, I would insist that they find a new vet!

Great news on the OFA prelims! I agree that this person needs to find a new vet. I would also send all information including original exam from Feb to the ortho vet that did the work up as they clearly messed up and could have caused the dog a great deal of harm.

Do the vets in your country not have to be a member of a Vet association or something along that line. If it were me I would be gathering all the information their vet had told them needed to be done and what he said was wrong with the pup and I would be laying a complaint against him with the regulatory body who regulate Veterinary Medicine in your country. You are lucky the puppy buyers consulted you when this came up, can you imagine if they hadn't contacted you and they had gone through with all the surgeries he was suggesting , that poor baby would have gone through completely unnecessary pain and discomfort just to line this vets pocket. Don't vets swear an oath or something like doctors if they don't they darn well should !

Not just you as the breeder, but if I were those puppy's owners, I would be livid with the vet and orthopedist who told me that the puppy was dysplastic and needed all of that surgery. That's terrible! Not to mention extremely unethical. A cruciate injury is one thing... and could still be a cause of limping in that puppy if partial tear etc, but dysplasia?

I would make copies of the official OFA results and send them to the orthopedist AND the veterinarian who ordered all of those radiographs, so that they can see the results in print and hopefully reassess how they read hip rads and what recommendations they make to clients.

You need to report this BUTCHER to the AVMA!!!
https://www.avma.org/Pages/home.aspx
and if the Ortho is board certified you need to file a complaint!!
https://www.avma.org/ProfessionalDevelopment/Education/Specialties/Pages/default.aspx

I think the owners of the pup and you have a claim against these vets that told them the pup was severly dysplastic, I think they can recoup all monies spent with them and report them to the AVMA at the same time, we need to get vets like this out of business and i'd make sure to let everyone I know about this

Some years ago I took a puppy in to an orthopedic specialist for a shoulder injury - xrayed hips as well and they said dysplastic and wanted to do surgery ASAP - I sent X-rays in to OFA - Dr. Keller gave him prelim good if I remember. I should have turned that vet into the AVMA as well - didn't think about it at the time.

What a saga! Sounds similar to what happened to a 7 year old dog I bred who came up very lame a day and a half after playing with another dog. The local vets (Westchester NY) originally said he needed two!!!!! ACL repairs. The ortho specialists said he had some kind of immune mediated arthritis. Here is the kicker. He had a negative result from the in-house Lyme test. I said treat him any way for a month with antibiotics. It's cheap and harmless. Everyone poo pooed that idea. So after much dollars on x-rays, and expensive tests, and no clear diagnosis another Lyme test was done. Positive for Lyme! Now the dog is on antibiotics.
I don't know where you live, but my feeling about dogs here in the northeast is when a dog starts to limp one month of doxycycline is the way to go in so many cases AND if you read the info on those in house snap
Lyme tests, you will insist on a trial of doxy.
I could tell you another story about a puppy one day shy of a year bred by me who ended up with two elbow repairs, one on an asymptomatic elbow and no evidence of a problem on x-rays. (The x-rays were sent to Cornell). The in house snap test for Lyme was negative. But that story would be too long.

SO TRUE….we need to get these vets under control. They don't have to carry malpractice, and they are so smug whenever you question them about anything. AND they ALWAYS get paid, even if they do something wrong or unnecessary…

Definitely go after the vet…more vets need to know us breeders are holding them accountable.

I won't even sell a pup to a client until I interview their vet. They are all defensive, but I don't care…I won't deal with their stupid decisions later, that they think the breeder should pay for, when in fact, they exacerbated a situation, misdiagnosed, or gave wrong advice. Some even lie to clients, give them false hopes, loving to be the "superman" that will "save their pup" (even if they know the surgery will harm the pup) I had this happen with 2 vets that did surgery on supposed intersucception (sp?) From my experience, the rate of those who survive this surgery is VERY low, yet the vets do it without telling the client the risks…but if they don't do the surgery, and allow the breeder to instead replace the pup or help with the costs, THEY DONT MAKE ANY MONEY...and the puppy owner is in debt for thousands and thousands of dollars sometimes. Its so AWFUL.

Yay! Let's bash the vets now! It's such a fun game. When we have to deal with breeders like "the one who shall not be named" and worse, do you wonder why breeders are held in such low esteem?

I really HATE the Vet bashing.....There was once a time that wonderful and generous Veterinarians would offer help and great advise to the posters on this forum. That is no longer the case due to all the "Vet Bashing" that goes on so frequently. Too bad that we all lost such great veterinary support due to the lack of respect.

Once again, and only my opinion. When we allow dirty deceptive breeders to continue to do what they do. No one will want to associate themselves with the entire breeding group. We all end up paying for that in the end. No wonder they left the forum.
The one or two bad apples do spoil the whole bunch in this case.

Maybe we need to be more clear with our buyers....calls US first before you go to the vet. It's great the pup is OK, but sad the family is out $700 and if I were them, I wouldn't trust that vet again. It's not vet bashing, but who wants to work with that kind of vet. I've had experiences with vets who were GREAT but charged too much for what they wanted to do, so I dumped them. Pure economics.

Even if the family does call you first and even if you suggest a line of treatment, if the treating veterinarian says otherwise, what is the poor dog owner supposed to do. If you have been breeding dogs for many,many years, and if you have half a brain, you learn a lot. Our experience and expertise in many aspects of veterinary medicine should not be underestimated. I am sure that starting the first year of breeding dogs, you, like me, researched everything medical that came up with your dogs. When you are about to put your bitch through a labor and delivery, you make yourself very,very prepared. When you had your first experience with a limping puppy, you researched that, etc.,etc. many veterinarians have no reproductive experience. Many have little experience with any but boiler plate dog problems. And sorry to say, when a breeder suggests a benign treatment for the first occurrence of a problem, that can be very threatening to a veterinarian . . .Which is why many vets don't want to have breeders in their practice. With that said, I have had positive experiences working with wonderful veterinarians over the many years I have had dogs. The best are dog breeders themselves.

I am very thankful for my own vet. He asked to have the initial x-rays and report sent to him. He told me the placement for initial the hip x-rays was done incorrectly, but even so, the hips looked good or excellent to him. He looked at all the other x-rays and saw no issues at all. He suggested the initial x-rays be sent on to Michigan State(their comment - x-rays normal for age) for a second opinion and to get pup in to him to do OFA's. He was polite and respectful to the family when they finally drove the 1 1/2 hours and brought pup in to him. They even commented how much they liked him. My own vet deserves a reward for how well he helped in this situation. I'm also very thankful that most vets are not like this pup's . The family refuses to switch vets which I kindly suggested they do. I agree that the best vets are breeders themselves, all the vets in my office show, compete in performance and breed. It does make a difference. I'm so thankful the hips came out excellent. I now realize not all vets are the same.

Story Time! A true story from a very, very reputable Akita breeder who happens to be a good friend of mine. A young couple had recently lost their Akita who had suffered from Pemphigus his entire life. They approached Lynn who sold them a puppy.

Tra la la, the young couple (as instructed) conducted a health check on their wonderful new puppy (8 weeks old). Horror, the pup was severely Dysplastic and needed surgery immediately. Fortunately the couple called Lynn.

Hold the presses. Bring me that puppy. Lynn paid for their gas and one night in a hotel, she also paid for the x-rays. So off they all go to Lynn's vet. The pup was x-rayed. The vet spent an hour explaining to the couple what hip dysplasia was, and used x-rays to show the couple photos of dysplastic hips. After an hour, he put up the x-rays from their pup. They gasped and changed vets.

Fast forward 2 years - OFA Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moral of the story? "Greed Happens"