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What to do?

I'm wondering what is the right thing to do in this situation:
I sold a dog on limited registry to a woman, he in now 18 months old. She wanted to do some dock diving with the dog, but he was not into that. Now, she is doing some obedience and the daughter is doing 4-H. The problem is that the dog sits cooked. He is sound in every way and a beloved house pet, but he has a crooked sit that is driving the woman crazy and now driving me crazy. He has been radiographed by her own vet, by an orthopedic vet and today, has been examined by another board-certified surgeon and no one can tell her why he sits crooked. They do agree that the dog has a crooked sit and that it won't affect him and that they may never know why he does it.
I think she wants me to refund her money. I have done this in the past for genetic issues and have no problem making the situation "right" with an owner. I just have a problem refunding money for an condition that no one can diagnose, that wont get worse according to the specialists and won't affect the life of the dog in any way. I have offered to refund her money and rehome the dog, but she does not want to do that.
I know I could make the problem "go away" by giving her her money back. I do not have a contract as I tell people I do all the health clearances and that dogs are living creatures and things can happen.
Any sage advice out there?

Re: What to do?

Gee. I wouldn't worry about it in any way. No I would not refund any monies. Nor would I sell her another puppy ever.

Of all the health issues this is the least of anyones worries.

Re: What to do?

anon for this
I'm wondering what is the right thing to do in this situation:
I sold a dog on limited registry to a woman, he in now 18 months old. She wanted to do some dock diving with the dog, but he was not into that. Now, she is doing some obedience and the daughter is doing 4-H. The problem is that the dog sits cooked. He is sound in every way and a beloved house pet, but he has a crooked sit that is driving the woman crazy and now driving me crazy. He has been radiographed by her own vet, by an orthopedic vet and today, has been examined by another board-certified surgeon and no one can tell her why he sits crooked. They do agree that the dog has a crooked sit and that it won't affect him and that they may never know why he does it.
I think she wants me to refund her money. I have done this in the past for genetic issues and have no problem making the situation "right" with an owner. I just have a problem refunding money for an condition that no one can diagnose, that wont get worse according to the specialists and won't affect the life of the dog in any way. I have offered to refund her money and rehome the dog, but she does not want to do that.
I know I could make the problem "go away" by giving her her money back. I do not have a contract as I tell people I do all the health clearances and that dogs are living creatures and things can happen.
Any sage advice out there?



He is a lazy sitter , some are some aren't, its all in the training, he needs to be trained to sit correctly. No refund and no new puppy the dog is healthy and sound so she can't complain. It is in fact as I said a training issue so I would say the buck stops with the trainer.

Re: What to do?

I have heard it all now. She wants a refund because the dog "sits" crooked. I call it the Labby lean...tell her to train him to sit correctly. Dog is being lazy.

Re: What to do?

That was also my thought, that this was a training issue. I have to be very careful what I say to this woman. She has said to me numerous times that I think it she is crazy, but I have never tried to imply that.
She thinks I'm not sympathetic and not listening to her, and all I can think is "thank goodness it is such a minor problem".
Thanks for your feedback!

Re: What to do?

Over the years, I have had several dogs with crooked sits. So what?

I'd probably sympathize to the extent of saying it is frustrating, but you are glad the dog has proven to be sound. That's it!

Re: What to do?

Oh my he sits crooked... Tell her to start training him on a chair or stool - he just needs to have his muscle memory built up so it understands a straight, correct sit. Correct sloppy sits and reward correct ones. They allowed it to start as a puppy and now his muscles recognize it. He will end up with minor deductions in the obedience ring as he will lag on starts as it will take more time to get moving from a sloppy sit. A sloppy sit leads into breaking a sit and sliding into a down. At 18 months should be easy enough.

Another idea is the flooring she's training on - maybe it's irritating his testicles??

Re: What to do?

LOL
Oh my he sits crooked... Tell her to start training him on a chair or stool - he just needs to have his muscle memory built up so it understands a straight, correct sit. Correct sloppy sits and reward correct ones. They allowed it to start as a puppy and now his muscles recognize it. He will end up with minor deductions in the obedience ring as he will lag on starts as it will take more time to get moving from a sloppy sit. A sloppy sit leads into breaking a sit and sliding into a down. At 18 months should be easy enough.

Another idea is the flooring she's training on - maybe it's irritating his testicles??


Carpet on the floor to sooth the testicles.... sorry I just couldn't resist. lol

I agree the sloppy/crooked sit is a "trained" behaviour. The dog was not corrected timely/efficiently to resolve the crooked sit issue. Back to basics in obedience training.

Core training and conditioning, Re: What to do?

Like us, a dog that is not conditioned at the core is not as strong as he could be. He is also just finishing growing--sheesh. Wanna bet the 4-H kid pets him in such a way that he sits crooked? Folks at high levels of obedience work against a wall, on a platform, etc. That being said, depending on where she is, she may wish to see a physical therapist with an obedience background for help with this training and conditioning. How about the owner/trainer of the black Lab who was a National Obedience Champion twice, and a winner at Crufts, too? Petra Ford is giving a seminar.
http://www.colonialk9.com/index.cfm/events/59051/
Petra is also at AquaDog.com

http://www.aquadogrehab.com/about.html

There are other good folks for conditioning, and often the agility folks know who they are. Use of physiballs and peanuts are becoming common.

http://www.fitpawsusa.com/

I would also recommend a good veterinary chiropractor. Maybe he got knocked outta whack avoiding dock diving or slipping, a slip that made him dislike it? I cannot say enough good things about Dr. Sue Ann Lesser.

Re: What to do?

I had a favorite of mine that sat lazy... taught her to sit straight and she earned her CD. Sad thing about this situation is this person seems to lacking the ability to love this dog for who he is

Re: What to do?

Agree with above that dog is not loved for who he is - sad. To teach a correct sit - get a treat in center of handler's body and have dog sit, move backward, say "front" and have dog sit again, continue moving backward and having dog "front" and do quick sits all in rapid succesion. Give treats out in front of dog so that dog must put weight on front feet to get the treat. Keep dog moving, giving treats out in front. It will correct the sit. I think it's part genetic- my third generation (also a 4-H dog) began with crooked sits like mom and grandma (OFA excellents) all were corrected with help of our 4-H instructor who is a top AKC competitor. It's correctable, just wish they loved dog anyway.

Re: What to do?

anon for this
I'm wondering what is the right thing to do in this situation:
I sold a dog on limited registry to a woman, he in now 18 months old. She wanted to do some dock diving with the dog, but he was not into that. Now, she is doing some obedience and the daughter is doing 4-H. The problem is that the dog sits cooked. He is sound in every way and a beloved house pet, but he has a crooked sit that is driving the woman crazy and now driving me crazy. He has been radiographed by her own vet, by an orthopedic vet and today, has been examined by another board-certified surgeon and no one can tell her why he sits crooked. They do agree that the dog has a crooked sit and that it won't affect him and that they may never know why he does it.
I think she wants me to refund her money. I have done this in the past for genetic issues and have no problem making the situation "right" with an owner. I just have a problem refunding money for an condition that no one can diagnose, that wont get worse according to the specialists and won't affect the life of the dog in any way. I have offered to refund her money and rehome the dog, but she does not want to do that.
I know I could make the problem "go away" by giving her her money back. I do not have a contract as I tell people I do all the health clearances and that dogs are living creatures and things can happen.
Any sage advice out there?



Unbelievable what some people would say to try to get the money back on a puppy. Please, don't be screwed by this lady. The dogs is healthy, she got lucky!

Re: What to do?

For the dogs sake please refund the money and place the dog in a loving home. If she is unhappy with the dog then she will not treat the dog nice. Write this one off and move on. Do the right thing. I would want the dog back if someone was unhappy with it.

Re: What to do?

If you read the original post it says that she offered to take the dog back, refund the buyer, and re-home the dog. The owner does not want to do give up the dog.

Re: What to do?

I have a lazy sitter and sit needs to be re-trained using a new command, ie, "up sit" instead of just "sit".

Teaching sit on a balance board also helps as the dog will tip if not seated straight.

Re: What to do?

My gosh, my OFA Excellent bitch with 13 titles is a crooked sitter. It's just what she does. I've tried to gently correct it, but in the ring she will sit crooked.

She enjoys what she does and so I ignore it. There are worse things to stress about.

I have to agree with whoever said, refund the money and get the dog back. To refund their money just because the dog sits crooked is crazy.

Re: What to do?

I think we could all write a book about crazy puppy buyers but maybe that should be a different thread. :)
I too have an Excellent who drives me nuts w/ crooked sits. Pretty sure she does it because in her mind, it's more comfortable (or she just likes to get my goat) because she CAN sit straight if she needs to.

Re: What to do?

I'm the original poster....this lady is now researching other (better) breeders for her next dog. If any Midwest breeders want to know who this is, send me an email. She wants a perfect dog and I don't have any.
Thank you to all who replied and confirmed what I was thinking!

Re: What to do?

Karen Helmers
I'm the original poster....this lady is now researching other (better) breeders for her next dog. If any Midwest breeders want to know who this is, send me an email. She wants a perfect dog and I don't have any.
Thank you to all who replied and confirmed what I was thinking!


No one has the perfect dog Karen. As a vet and breeder you know that and that this woman is off her rocker.

I'm not in the Midwest or I would be contacting you. If I do get any calls, I'll let you know but I'm 2000 miles away.

I would get this up on Facebook too. Make sure she can't see you. You'll find some breeders that aren't on here.

It's kind of you to make others aware. That's how we should all work together.

Re: What to do?

I agree. Tell her that you will take the dog back and give her a full refund since she is obviously unhappy with the dog. Tell her you will find a loving home for the dog and that you are concerned for the future well-being of the pup.

A lazy sit is just that, lazy. It may simply be more comfortable. Doesn't mean there are structural issues. Do the right thing for the dog, find someone who will love him/her unconditionally.

Anon 2
For the dogs sake please refund the money and place the dog in a loving home. If she is unhappy with the dog then she will not treat the dog nice. Write this one off and move on. Do the right thing. I would want the dog back if someone was unhappy with it.

Re: What to do?

Believe me, I have offered to refund her money and take the dog back. She was "deeply hurt" by my suggestion that she was disappointed in him and he should be rehomed. She would either like another puppy or a refund, and keep the dog. I just can't see doing that for a sound, healthy happy dog with no apparent reason for a crooked sit. Now, I'm just hoping to help another breeder avoid the drama.

Re: What to do?

Holy Cow Karen...didn't you have the puppy's sire and dam "straight sit" tested prior to breeding? What the heck???

Gosh...I have dogs with bigger problems than a crooked sit. I wouldn't dream of asking their breeders for a refund. They are my dogs and my responsibility. They are first and foremost a part of my family. I adore them and can't imagine my life without them.

Karen, you have lovely dogs, anyone would be thrilled to have a Labrador from your kennel!

Re: What to do?

Frankly, I am SHOCKED that your toddling puppies don't go home ready to compete in the National Obedience Championship, as well as in dock dogs. ;-D

On a more serious note, what ever happened to "TRAIN, Don't Complain," as the signs say at obedience shops?

http://www.max200.com/max_storefront/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=176

Amazing. I hope she is not a client at the office, too. Sigh.

Re: What to do?

You know, I'm always amazed at the way clients treat breeders and what they "expect" when they get a dog.

We are a victim of the "Walmart Syndrome" that Americans have…like, if not satisfied, return for a refund, no questions asked, type of thing.

I'm VERY upfront about what people should/should not "expect" from their experience with me and one of my dogs. And my contract/health guarantee has grown into three pages to help avoid all the stupidity I've seen over the years.

I"m so sorry you are dealing with this, I really am. Stay strong. Don't let these people get to you. Once they sense blood the least bit, they just keep going at you. Be firm, be professional, and remember, you did nothing wrong!!!

Re: What to do?

I guess her children were already trained/educated right out of the womb too. ;) My contract states what I do cover, plus I provide a multiple page document to help them prepare to care for their puppy--- and that starts w/ the rules for puppy visits here. I have become leery of selling to people w/young kids in recent years unless I know the folks are motivated to train for hunting or something. Just too many unrealistic expectations w/ so many young parents!

Re: What to do?

So there is nothing wrong with the dog, she gets no refund and no replacement puppy- also never a pup from me again. This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's called a sloppy sit by field folks. Refer her to join the RTF (free) and search sloppy sit. There are lots of suggestions to "fix" the behavior- it is a behavior. Often caused by boredom with the task or inadequate training. Better yet, tell her to post the whole story (wanting a refund, dog being examined, etc) and let the Folks on the RTF tell her exactly what she needs to hear.

Re: What to do?

AL
So there is nothing wrong with the dog, she gets no refund and no replacement puppy- also never a pup from me again. This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's called a sloppy sit by field folks. Refer her to join the RTF (free) and search sloppy sit. There are lots of suggestions to "fix" the behavior- it is a behavior. Often caused by boredom with the task or inadequate training. Better yet, tell her to post the whole story (wanting a refund, dog being examined, etc) and let the Folks on the RTF tell her exactly what she needs to hear.


OMG, that'd be priceless!!!!! Yes, do it! I can only imagine...

Re: What to do?

windycanyon
AL
So there is nothing wrong with the dog, she gets no refund and no replacement puppy- also never a pup from me again. This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's called a sloppy sit by field folks. Refer her to join the RTF (free) and search sloppy sit. There are lots of suggestions to "fix" the behavior- it is a behavior. Often caused by boredom with the task or inadequate training. Better yet, tell her to post the whole story (wanting a refund, dog being examined, etc) and let the Folks on the RTF tell her exactly what she needs to hear.


OMG, that'd be priceless!!!!! Yes, do it! I can only imagine...
Karen has more class then to do that. She is handling it like the lady she is.

Re: What to do?

Something I wanted to mention, I noticed from the above thread that Karen said no contract and someone else said three page contract. In 30 years I have purchased Labs from 5 well known Kennels and not one time have I received any written contract. The Breeders all said what Karen said, they are living animals and things happen. When I started breeding we wanted to do it right and one thing that we did was talk to an attorney about contracts and he advised not to do one. He advised us to have one sheet that stated what testing we did on the parents but in no way could we guarantee the pup against any situation that might display. Not one time have we ever had an issue that a buyer wanted to return a pup or ask for money. We have an open and honest relationship with our puppy owners. We respect them and answer what sometimes seems like endless questions and we believe we receive the same respect from them. We must because they always want their second and third dog from us. When I look at some of the Contracts it looks like the Breeder is a little to worried about themselves and in reality about as able to enforce as nothing! As far as a lazy sit..........my God! The fact that this Lab did not take to dock diving or obedience ring goes more to what she purchased it for, the dog sounds like a couch potato not a performance dog. My question would be her needs being discussed with the breeder before the purchase . There are some dogs that do not make it in those arenas just like some don't make it in the show ring and no amount of training will make them happy doing something they are not cut out to do. I always look for the good things about my puppy people and granted she may be a pain but a few things stood out about her, they are doing things with the dog, taking it places and having fun. The daughter in 4H with the pup! The fact that she does not want to let the pup go would indicate to me they llove the dog. I would find a reputable trainer in her area, I would pay a set amount to have the pup try to learn to do a correct sit and be done with it! If the owner paid for all that testing I can't think it is a money thing, they already have the price of a pup in Vet fees. That is just me though.

Re: What to do?

Observation: With the first litter that I used a contract with, I found out on the day of puppy pick up that the gal was an attorney. Contract law was her area of specialization. She commented that my contract was a good one because it was "two-sided". I've since sold to several lawyers, all were complimentary. A good contract spells out what you will do if the other party does their end. If there is nothing in writing, it opens up too many areas for interpretation. Mine is 2 pages and it's saved me a lot of grief later on if a person begins to think they may want to breed or whatever. The requirements for health testing/titling etc are all there in black and white. It addresses a lot of other things that should be common sense too, like not allowing puppy to ride unrestrained in an open vehicle (state law here), weight/exercise/etc but we all know that common sense isn't always common anymore. It is probably unnecessary for 90% of the people, but it's nice to have in writing for those who are new to puppy ownership.

Re: What to do?

Well there is always a first time for everything! Owner needs to go back to the competitive school/trainer and solve the problem. Oh not training with someone? Well time to start. This is so easily solved and I cannot believe they have gone to the lengths of physically xraying the dog. Just recondition the 'sit' in training.