My answer to the OP is that as long as you are sure that your puppies/dogs are not ending up in shelters, go ahead and breed as many healthy, happy dogs as you want.
I do rescue but I also breed on occasion. And I get the sour faces when I do breed. But my response to people is that some families want a purebred at the end of their leash and that is their right. But I know where my Lab puppies are, heck, I know where all my rescued mixie-mutts are!!
What is happening in the shelters is not because of responsible breeding. It is a product of our throwaway, uncommitted, self absorbed society. We don't commit to our animals until they are old and gone, we throw our animals away for the next flavor of the month, we don't teach our children the value of a life, we fall apart when things get too difficult and we think nothing of using an animal for fun and then tossing it aside when it's no longer needed!
I, for one, wish that we could get in the business of some of these jerks who dump dogs in shelters the way we get in the business of breeders. Like people who adopt a puppy on Friday afternoon to occupy the kids and then return it on Monday because everyone has to head back to work or school, people who dump 14 year old Champ at the back of the shelter (knowing full well he will never get adopted!!!!) and walk around to the front of the shelter and into the kennels to pick up another dog, people who habitually drop litters of puppies off but never get reprimanded for not spaying or neutering their roaming dog, and on and on.........
It's a sad situation and I don't have an answer but as long as we, the keepers of this wonderful breed, set a good example then that's all we really can do until we go back to a nation with a conscience!
It is unbelievable that there are still people that come to this forum to through a question that makes no difference on anything and just make people that do enjoy the forum for real problems or joys lose their time.
Mind your business and if you are part of the solution go ahead and do something instead of making no sense posts in a anonymous forum.
Well said............
people assume you can't have quality and quantity…some breeders do high quantity and high quality and do a fabulous job. Do well in the show ring, find FABULOUS homes for their pups, and OMG, they make money…GASP! Maybe you are just upset about the money.
If dogs are well taken care of, health clearances, kennel is an exceptional environment, only exceptional homes accepted for pups, and I might imagine people are searching for professional kennels. Leave it be.
Demand for purebred dogs is at an all time high. Kennels who can and do put out GOOD quality labs will be more and more sought after as the years go by and PETA and other AR get their way.
Sounds like a troll
It's awesome you do rescue, I rescue the seniors that no body wants. I figure if they have been on this earth for that many yrs. they deserve to die with dignity, not at some shelter because someone passed away or didn't want to deal with the accidents that come with age. I just adore the seniors.
But my question on this forum derived from a friend that just quit working for a huge Lab kennel. And when I say huge, with all their off property kennels this person has Aprox 30 to 40 females alone, breeding left and right. Twice a yr pretty much to to each female. Yes they health test. However, puppies in and out like park central. I think she said they have bred probably over 150 so far in the last six months. She said the conditions were not all that great. But passable by dept of AG standards.
This persons ad claims state of the art kennel, swimming pools, every outdoor pen shaded. Inside heated runs, that had never been turned on in three yrs until they started working. All bullcrap. Just a lot of smoke and mirrors. She told me her spirit was so crushed by the things she saw. So I just had to ask. How many was too many. Coming off such a hard cold winter. Dogs on top of dogs. She said it was just horrible. The swimming pools were the old cow troffs that turned dark green with alge. Advertising she spends most of her time with her dogs. Oh my gosh, barely did the workers see her out in the kennel. Which was a few hundred yards from her home. So it sucked for my friend, and I can just imagine how much it sucked for the dogs. Anyway, glad you do rescue. Props ;)
150 bred meaning 150 puppies. Not females
sounds like "friend" just has an ax to grind…take your lies elsewhere. This is a forum where we discuss things that are worth our time rather than trumping up ways to bash breeders. Anyone who has an ax to grind will say anything to make a breeder look bad.
Not buying it.
I doubt they have an axe to grind, I will ask her who these people are, maybe they are ethical, let us All be the judge. That way you can stop throwing daggers in the wrong direction. Put it all to rest. If they are reputable, then so be it. If so, I will retract everything I had heard.
That's funny…I know of a breeder who just had to let a kennel worker go recently and this OP seems to know the "exact" details of that kennel "supposedly" …hmmmmm….sounds like someone has an ax to grind, got let go, and suddenly the kennel they worked in is demonized now that they are "gone"…sounds like a good opportunity to "get back" at a breeder they are mad at because things didn't work out. Timing is suspicious.
The facts about THAT kennel, I happen to know...OP is is making accusations to make them look bad. Sour grapes?
BUT…if its the kennel i suspect... They are amazing. Great staff, great kennel, great dogs. Great handler, great show wins. She has a great "team" in that kennel.
I think the OP should also check their numbers…sounds like they like to double everything (# of pups). And trying to make "c0-owners' sound like that's a bad word. Breeders do that all the time.
And then OP makes everything seem "oh, so awful." And them jumps on the bandwagon of a past post…yeah, real classy...
And they should also check world renown, Dr. Hutchinson's recommendation of breeding young dogs while younger back to back with one off, and retire EARLY…trying to be the breeder? Are you a breeder?…doubt that. Disgruntled formal employee…wow, quite likely.
I think we found our troll..
Well well, as they start to crawl out of the woodwork. this person wasn't let go. They quit. And very well should have. The conditions were horrible. And we aren't really talking about young dogs being bred now are we. So unless you know exactly what you are talking about. I'd step back a few feet. Careful who you are standing for. It can be a bit deceiving from the outside looking in. However the little character of the head spinning is right on the money. Good people, reputable handlers, and even workers can be easily deceived. I know my friend was.
Lots of people who are "let go" report to others they 'quit"…very common…and this case, truth.
This one's obvious.
I suspect the one "let go" is posting through a friend as a...
TROLL!!
dear OP….dear "ax to grind"
the adjectives are getting more "desperate"
"horrible"
hardly.
now can we get back to our forum…what a waste of time
sounds like good breeders with good dogs, good handlers and good business and team let "bad worker" go…think OP is the one in the spotlight. Funny how just the person let go is the one who thinks everyone else is fooled.
oh brother
I don't know which large( commercial) breeder you are speaking of. Puppy mills can get dressed up and have pretty web sites, but still be puppy mills. One instance e recently came to my knowledge when a family inquired about a puppy from one of these high volume breeders. Went to see the puppies and all seemed great until they asked to see the mother of the litter. The answer was no and they ended up losing their sizable deposit over it because they walked away from taking the puppy based on the fact they were refused to be allowed to see the puppy's mother. Clean? Well fed? In compliance with AKC and other governing bodies? Yes. Still a puppy mill. These people did the right thing by walking away, but the " breeder" in question still made a nice amount of money on them. Unethical? Absolutely.
Your right about that. Walking away was probably the best move. I heard of a fairly large commercial kennel that at times the new puppy owners were shown the wrong stud dog just to appease them. So they thought the stud was on property when they really weren't. People see what they want to see. Kind of sad really that one has to go there.
There always will be unscrupulous people in all walks of life. Yes, there are good breeders and bad breeders, but just because they don't live up to your standard doesn't necessarily make them bad.
Stereotyping and making blanket statements about larger volume breeders without having any first hand knowledge is wrong. Getting your information from a possibly "disgruntled" employee who may also subscribe to the AR agenda or believe dogs shouldn't live in kennels is also not an accurate way to portray these breeders. Some may have state of the art facilities or older facilities, it doesn't make it wrong or illegal, especially if these kennels are inspected regularly by the USDA or local animal agencies.
These are also dogs. They don't mind living in kennels as long as they have other dogs around them to socialize with. As long as their needs are being met, it's not a sin to keep dogs in kennel situations. The early games keepers and breeders kept large number of breeding dogs and had large kennels. If not for them, we may not have the breed as we know it. It hasn't been until more recent times that we've begun to "humanize" our dogs and bring them in to sleep inside.
I happen to enjoy the company of my dogs and have 4 dogs that sleep in my bed, but I make no mistake that these are still dogs and not "furkids" or "four-legged" humans. They aren't and they are perfectly happy either on my bed, in their crate or in the kennel (bitches in heat or when I go to shows). They are not unhappy or neglected or abused by staying outside.
Bottom line is we need to stop throwing around that derogatory, breeder hate slur and stop being so judgmental of each other. Just because another breeder breeds differently than you does not make them bad, irresponsible or wrong. We have to stop our fighting and band together to fight the AR threat to all of our breeding programs, big or small. Look at the overall picture, drop the stereotypes and open your mind to people who do things differently than you. Who are we to judge?
I'm not going to jump in here and go down the list of what I think is intellectually dishonest in this whole discussion, except to say that people should be really careful about applying the term "puppy mill" to breeders just because they fail to meet someone's arbitrary definition based on numbers. If you want to see what really qualifies as a puppy mill, watch this. But be forewarned - it is extremely upsetting, very graphic, and should NOT be watched where there is even the remotest chance that children may see it. I hope you learn a little about the pitfalls of painting with too broad a brush.
http://www.caps-web.org/component/k2/item/140?Itemid=269
Oh... one more thing. Not to be nitpicky or anything (and of course I will be) the title of this thread should probably be "...too many" and not "...two many".
What a waste of time. Almost sounds like someone going back and forth with themselves just to make some points. They didn't. Selling puppys just to build you a house is wrong. Many, many litters of so, so dogs is wrong. And your name goes out so quickly that you are doing it. Sad for our breed.
So it's ok to pimp out your stud dog and make money off of them, but not by breeding a larger volume of puppies to do so? Where do all those litters of puppies go sired by your stud dog?
As for your name, I am assuming that is 'the' Arnold? You do realize his owner has a large volume of dogs right? They live in a barn with luxurious paddacks and stalls to run, but they are all not house dogs. There is nothing wrong with this either. But rarely do successful kennels keep only a handful of dogs. Many must breed in larger volume in order to have more puppies to select from to get those truly exceptional dogs.
To all you folks who think that to reputable to have to follow the elitist way of breeding and that is only 1 to 2 litters a year, keep all your dogs in the house, have only a limited number of dogs yada, yada, yada how do you think one builds a recognized kennel style from that? And do you think those who breed in volume don't care about their dogs only the money? You should be ashamed of yourselves. There are many people who have large volumes of dogs who take excellent care of them.
As MYOB states, just because people breed differently than you doesn't make them wrong.
You suspect wrong. This person walked away. Wasn't let go, wasn't fired. Maybe we aren't talking about the same kennel. It ethically wasn't their cup of tea, hey, it happens. You really can't see what's going on in any given situation until you end up right in the middle of it. And I am actually catching flack from my friend trying to defend them. But as a defender of the animals who have no voice. Who are really just the vessel in all of this. It is sad. There is not a thing wrong with making money in life. But when it is done on the backs of helpless animals, who are only put on this earth to please. And one gives nothing back to them in return. It just isn't right. I'm not talking about all breeders, obviously. I am however talking about the selfish, self centered people who portray themseves as something they are not. And do it in such a way that a good percentage of the outsiders looking in cant see it. I think most on this forum know who I am talking about. But we can't just whisper when they walk by and say, their the ones. Or just turn a blind eye to the obvious. If one truly adores their breed. You need to stand up for them in any way you can. Not sure what the answer is, I'm sure I approached this in the worst way possible. But if it exposes one bad breeder. Opening someone else's eyes to it. Then I certainly can't apologize for that, is it not our goal in life to protect what is closest to us? What we pride ourselves on. If Labs are our life and we truly adore the gifts that have been given us. We need to protect them in any way we can. My friend thought they were doing the right thing. However found out different. That if you look directly into a labs eyes. They will tell a story. A window directly into their soul. A gentle giant put on this earth to please. Enough said, I think I got my point across
How would you possibly know what your dogs want. Your to busy rolling around in your closed minded opinions on who people are or are not. Wrong again dimwit. Not an AR Troll. I've not seen one video or read a single book regarding AR. I support no cause. But I do suggest you get a life and stop blaming others for your obvious guilt on perhaps spitting out too many litters. Your a joke. And if your dogs could speak. They would be begging to free them from your greedy little hands. Are you one of those commercial breeders?? Comes n, share with us on much you really care
Broker's are also something we don't expose a lot. They farm out their puppy litters to be raised for sales to large amounts of customers. Going to pet Stores and those who sell in Newspaper adds.
Dog showing is a hobby for those who love a breed of dogs. Yes, ethics are involved. But everyone interprets that differently.
One large commercial breeder actually has God on her side and has written a book proving it. To her you will never convince making money is a bad thing.
Maybe genetics is everything and numbers of pups sold each year don't matter. But when your pup gets sick and you need help from the breeder are they there for you?
Yes, you can make large sums of money breeding dogs. The same breeders even win at Potomac so the dogs look good to judges. But to me it is different being in the breed for the love of the breed, vs making a living off of it.
Buyers do your homework. There are wolves who pose as reputable breeders.
This is the most stupid bunch of notes. One person giving her opinion and trying to run down others. Think this person needs to get out of Labradors or get her a few that keep her busy.
Too bad there isn't a way to hide threads.... like hiding posts or deleting them from your timeline in Facebook. This one would be a great place to start
...not clicking on the thread Greg. If you don't like it don't click on it, no one is forcing you to read it.
I think asking a question which comes from concern for dogs is certainly appropriate. It would seem that MYOB may be the one making sweeping generalizations and may be more concerned that others don't judge her behavior than with the dogs.
We all need to be careful about being too quick to judge but also we all need to put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with making a little money (although I certainly can't figure out how to do that by breeding dogs). There is nothing wrong with being proud of "wins" and "titles". But if your pocketbook is more important than the welfare of your dogs or the breed in general, or if your self-worth is defined by how many ribbons you win, I am not sure you can call yourself an ethical breeder.
Response to "to MYOB" above - A very thoughtful and intelligent response. It is awfully easy to figure out who MYOB is, it is the same spiel every single time. Constantly looking for acceptance where it will never exist, always blaming the AR groups in hopes of gaining acceptance. Trying to justify what reputable breeders detest by fear intimidation tactics, it really is tiring.