Thanks for outting yourself as an animal rights troll. The above is the mental illness that drives them to believe they must speak for our animals. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR MY ANIMALS. They do not need a warped, humanistic voice to speak for them. Give back? What does an animal really want? Food, security, necessary veterinary care and companionship (whether human or animal). They don't need to you to tell others how neglected or abused you think they are because they aren't be treated according to your warp sense of animal husbandry, of which you've already admitted to not even being a breeder. You have no clue the blood, sweat and tears most breeders (regardless of size or quality) put into their dogs. You've been brainwashed and watched/seen too many of the propaganda videos and photos put out by the Animal Rights Groups to make you think these animals need your voice. My dogs have a voice. They tell me what they want, when they want it. I am enslaved to caring for them. I spend thousands a year on vet care, food, shows, etc. If I make some money by having a few extra litters, THAT'S MY RIGHT and it doesn't mean my dogs are suffering from it.

Get a grip on life lady, these are dogs, not your furbabies!

It is unbelievable that there are still people that come to this forum to through a question that makes no difference on anything and just make people that do enjoy the forum for real problems or joys lose their time.
Mind your business and if you are part of the solution go ahead and do something instead of making no sense posts in a anonymous forum.

Well said............

people assume you can't have quality and quantity…some breeders do high quantity and high quality and do a fabulous job. Do well in the show ring, find FABULOUS homes for their pups, and OMG, they make money…GASP! Maybe you are just upset about the money.

If dogs are well taken care of, health clearances, kennel is an exceptional environment, only exceptional homes accepted for pups, and I might imagine people are searching for professional kennels. Leave it be.
Demand for purebred dogs is at an all time high. Kennels who can and do put out GOOD quality labs will be more and more sought after as the years go by and PETA and other AR get their way.


Sounds like a troll

dear OP….dear "ax to grind"


the adjectives are getting more "desperate"


"horrible"

hardly.

now can we get back to our forum…what a waste of time

sounds like good breeders with good dogs, good handlers and good business and team let "bad worker" go…think OP is the one in the spotlight. Funny how just the person let go is the one who thinks everyone else is fooled.


oh brother

I don't know which large( commercial) breeder you are speaking of. Puppy mills can get dressed up and have pretty web sites, but still be puppy mills. One instance e recently came to my knowledge when a family inquired about a puppy from one of these high volume breeders. Went to see the puppies and all seemed great until they asked to see the mother of the litter. The answer was no and they ended up losing their sizable deposit over it because they walked away from taking the puppy based on the fact they were refused to be allowed to see the puppy's mother. Clean? Well fed? In compliance with AKC and other governing bodies? Yes. Still a puppy mill. These people did the right thing by walking away, but the " breeder" in question still made a nice amount of money on them. Unethical? Absolutely.

Your right about that. Walking away was probably the best move. I heard of a fairly large commercial kennel that at times the new puppy owners were shown the wrong stud dog just to appease them. So they thought the stud was on property when they really weren't. People see what they want to see. Kind of sad really that one has to go there.

There always will be unscrupulous people in all walks of life. Yes, there are good breeders and bad breeders, but just because they don't live up to your standard doesn't necessarily make them bad.

Stereotyping and making blanket statements about larger volume breeders without having any first hand knowledge is wrong. Getting your information from a possibly "disgruntled" employee who may also subscribe to the AR agenda or believe dogs shouldn't live in kennels is also not an accurate way to portray these breeders. Some may have state of the art facilities or older facilities, it doesn't make it wrong or illegal, especially if these kennels are inspected regularly by the USDA or local animal agencies.

These are also dogs. They don't mind living in kennels as long as they have other dogs around them to socialize with. As long as their needs are being met, it's not a sin to keep dogs in kennel situations. The early games keepers and breeders kept large number of breeding dogs and had large kennels. If not for them, we may not have the breed as we know it. It hasn't been until more recent times that we've begun to "humanize" our dogs and bring them in to sleep inside.

I happen to enjoy the company of my dogs and have 4 dogs that sleep in my bed, but I make no mistake that these are still dogs and not "furkids" or "four-legged" humans. They aren't and they are perfectly happy either on my bed, in their crate or in the kennel (bitches in heat or when I go to shows). They are not unhappy or neglected or abused by staying outside.

Bottom line is we need to stop throwing around that derogatory, breeder hate slur and stop being so judgmental of each other. Just because another breeder breeds differently than you does not make them bad, irresponsible or wrong. We have to stop our fighting and band together to fight the AR threat to all of our breeding programs, big or small. Look at the overall picture, drop the stereotypes and open your mind to people who do things differently than you. Who are we to judge?

I'm not going to jump in here and go down the list of what I think is intellectually dishonest in this whole discussion, except to say that people should be really careful about applying the term "puppy mill" to breeders just because they fail to meet someone's arbitrary definition based on numbers. If you want to see what really qualifies as a puppy mill, watch this. But be forewarned - it is extremely upsetting, very graphic, and should NOT be watched where there is even the remotest chance that children may see it. I hope you learn a little about the pitfalls of painting with too broad a brush.

http://www.caps-web.org/component/k2/item/140?Itemid=269

Oh... one more thing. Not to be nitpicky or anything (and of course I will be) the title of this thread should probably be "...too many" and not "...two many".

The 1st thing I noticed. I figured it was a joke so realize others may have too.

O my Lord Gregg. I never should have watched it. U warned us. I am ill from it. Anyone who watched it I would be surprised if they didn't loose their last meal.

The ogre woman was charged with only 9 felonies. Shouldn't ea. dog be considered a victim? They didn't take 1,000 dogs away.

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/puppy-miller-kathy-bauck-charged-with-abuse-torture-will-keep-1000-dogs

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/more-on-kathy-bauck-mn-puppy-miller-charged-with-9-felonies-video

There are different kinds a puppy mills. That was a puppy mill at it's worst. U can't give the rite amount of love to 1,000 or 100 dogs as u can to 6 or 12 for an example. Would mine or your dogs enjoy life the same in larger situations? I know mine wouldnt.You are fooling yourself if you think your few dogs would be as happy as they are now if sent to live with a kennel full of dog. That's all I have to say.

What a waste of time. Almost sounds like someone going back and forth with themselves just to make some points. They didn't. Selling puppys just to build you a house is wrong. Many, many litters of so, so dogs is wrong. And your name goes out so quickly that you are doing it. Sad for our breed.

Every reputable breeder I've ever dealt with only has one or two litters a year so they can get a keeper puppy to improve their existing line.

I've been following this forum for a decade and what I've read and heard is remarkable in some cases. It is also not fair or true in some of the answers you have received.

Never take too much from Forum "breeders" as the gospel. The best breeders have little time to spend typing replies. They are cleaning their kennels, working their dogs or raising a litter properly.

Sadly those who say commercial breeders are not "puppy mills" are wrong. yes every mill has different sanitary conditions. Yet it does not change the fact that anyone breeding 150 litters a year is anything but a puppy miller.

Now the real money is made when you get a great reputation and you get a "Stud Dog" that everyones wants to stamp their line with its features. That takes years and decades to do. Are "Stud Dog" owners millers because they sell the sperm of a great dog? No.

Some of the people telling you Commercial Breeders are not puppy mills, are they same people telling you the "Show" Labrador still looks like a Labrador. The people who judge shows and are leaders in the Breed Clubs are the very people who are giving you a hard time.

All breeders are not reputable, especially some of the ones who post on Wiscoy or other forums. The same ones who post here have sold their souls to the Silver breeders too.

Get to know a breeder who is local to you, and get recommendations from family or friends. A web site does not make a good breeder. Nor do their comments on Wiscoy.

So it's ok to pimp out your stud dog and make money off of them, but not by breeding a larger volume of puppies to do so? Where do all those litters of puppies go sired by your stud dog?

As for your name, I am assuming that is 'the' Arnold? You do realize his owner has a large volume of dogs right? They live in a barn with luxurious paddacks and stalls to run, but they are all not house dogs. There is nothing wrong with this either. But rarely do successful kennels keep only a handful of dogs. Many must breed in larger volume in order to have more puppies to select from to get those truly exceptional dogs.

To all you folks who think that to reputable to have to follow the elitist way of breeding and that is only 1 to 2 litters a year, keep all your dogs in the house, have only a limited number of dogs yada, yada, yada how do you think one builds a recognized kennel style from that? And do you think those who breed in volume don't care about their dogs only the money? You should be ashamed of yourselves. There are many people who have large volumes of dogs who take excellent care of them.

As MYOB states, just because people breed differently than you doesn't make them wrong.

How would you possibly know what your dogs want. Your to busy rolling around in your closed minded opinions on who people are or are not. Wrong again dimwit. Not an AR Troll. I've not seen one video or read a single book regarding AR. I support no cause. But I do suggest you get a life and stop blaming others for your obvious guilt on perhaps spitting out too many litters. Your a joke. And if your dogs could speak. They would be begging to free them from your greedy little hands. Are you one of those commercial breeders?? Comes n, share with us on much you really care

Broker's are also something we don't expose a lot. They farm out their puppy litters to be raised for sales to large amounts of customers. Going to pet Stores and those who sell in Newspaper adds.

Dog showing is a hobby for those who love a breed of dogs. Yes, ethics are involved. But everyone interprets that differently.

One large commercial breeder actually has God on her side and has written a book proving it. To her you will never convince making money is a bad thing.

Maybe genetics is everything and numbers of pups sold each year don't matter. But when your pup gets sick and you need help from the breeder are they there for you?

Yes, you can make large sums of money breeding dogs. The same breeders even win at Potomac so the dogs look good to judges. But to me it is different being in the breed for the love of the breed, vs making a living off of it.

Buyers do your homework. There are wolves who pose as reputable breeders.

How do I know what my dogs want or need? Well after about 30 some odd years of experience raising dogs, showing dogs (multiple specialty winners), training dogs, obtaining multiple show and performance titles, studying dog behavior, nutrition and medical, well I pretty much know a hell of lot more than you! If I don't know what my dogs want by now, I should just get out, but you know what? I do know. I do consider myself a bit of expert on dogs after all those years and study and knowledge and experience. It's obvious by your post you know NOTHING! Why the hell would I want you to be my dog's voice then? I know when my dogs are happy, I know when they are ill and need care (to the tune of thousands a years), and I know how to raise them to be healthy adults.

You don't have to read anything books from the AR Groups (I have though so I also know the type of mindset). It's their mantra, the language they use, their way of thinking about animals needing a voice or to be free from the tortures of man, their propaganda photos and videos they use to emotionally manipulate animal lovers to act out against people who enjoy animals without any actual context or proof of wrong doing. Those are things that you are displaying in the language you use in your posts.

Guilt, nope no guilt at all. Closed minded? Do you see me painting all breeders with same broad brush? Do you see me stereotyping and making blanket statements about them? Do you see me casting judgment on them? Do you see me calling them names and labeling them? You're the one who is doing that. You're projecting as you're the one with the closed mind. We as breeders need to open our minds and stop being so catty and gossipy about those we don't agree with but aren't necessarily doing anything wrong. Unless you visit their property personally and see FIRSTHAND how they care for their dogs, you have no right to judge them PERIOD!

As for the Broker's [sic] comment, so what? The statistics show that when a person pays good money for a dog, they will take care of it. The statistic also show that puppies obtained from Pet Stores are no less unhealthy than those obtained from other sources. They are also show that they are not surrendered to shelters any more than breeder dogs are (less than 5%). It is time to look at the stats, look at the bigger picture and drop the stereotypes and blanket statements!

This is the most stupid bunch of notes. One person giving her opinion and trying to run down others. Think this person needs to get out of Labradors or get her a few that keep her busy.

Sheesh lady you really need to do more research and stop watching all those emotionally manipulative animal rights porn flicks.

Also shows what you know about breeding, as someone else pointed out, leading Animal Repro Vet, Dr. Hutch recommends breeding dogs at a younger age and back to back. Do you really think that a female dog in heat will say, no not this time? If she was on the street, she'd be begging to bred EVERY heat! Again, if you knew anything about dog breeding, you'd know this.

Do you know that many commercial breeders are now doing health testing? That many have indoor/outdoor runs, on concrete and grass? Where are all your statistics to show how unhealthy these animals are? Oh that's right there aren't any! Simple business logic would dictate that you wouldn't stay in business very long if all you sold were sick animals.

Putting words in my mouth? I never said we need to sale to pet stores. Nor did I say it was reputable or not. I was simply pointing out that there are no statistics showing a higher number of dogs from Pet Stores who end up sick than those obtained elsewhere. I've read numerous testimonials from different Pet Store sights. Very happy customers, healthy dogs. Now that's not were I recommend a person buy a puppy from, but many do and many are quite happy with their choice. But as for me, I prefer to sell directly to the public and screen my homes. That's *MY* choice. I'm not going to tell other's how to sell their puppies though, that's their choice! It's not necessarily wrong. If we all had the same set of ethics and morals, we'd all be vegans and only see the animals from a far. No pets, no food, no hunting, no fishing...

Too bad there isn't a way to hide threads.... like hiding posts or deleting them from your timeline in Facebook. This one would be a great place to start

...not clicking on the thread Greg. If you don't like it don't click on it, no one is forcing you to read it.

This thread isn't worth it's bandwidth.

But don't you see? This is like watching a train wreck...

I think asking a question which comes from concern for dogs is certainly appropriate. It would seem that MYOB may be the one making sweeping generalizations and may be more concerned that others don't judge her behavior than with the dogs.

We all need to be careful about being too quick to judge but also we all need to put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with making a little money (although I certainly can't figure out how to do that by breeding dogs). There is nothing wrong with being proud of "wins" and "titles". But if your pocketbook is more important than the welfare of your dogs or the breed in general, or if your self-worth is defined by how many ribbons you win, I am not sure you can call yourself an ethical breeder.

Response to "to MYOB" above - A very thoughtful and intelligent response. It is awfully easy to figure out who MYOB is, it is the same spiel every single time. Constantly looking for acceptance where it will never exist, always blaming the AR groups in hopes of gaining acceptance. Trying to justify what reputable breeders detest by fear intimidation tactics, it really is tiring.