I've heard some rumblings that people are so disgusted by the LRC's letter to judges that they are thinking of boycotting the National this year. Good idea or not?

I can't go this year but unless things change at the LRC I'm not attending any of their events the following year (usually do conformation and hunt tests). We have to get our message across to them somehow!

Are you considering boycotting because:

A) The LRC are jerks

B) The LRC are wrong. Our dogs are healthy and correctly proportioned.

C) both

???

By all means, cut off your nose to spite your face.

I will definitely be at the real national. The LRCP's next spring show.

Why should I support a 'club' that doesn't support me? I'll be at the real national in Maryland next spring too!

None of the multiple choice answers

but..........I would boycott to get their attention / just to start a conversation regarding the closed nature of the club and work towards a short deadline for expanding the LRC Board to include current judges and breeders - to include at least 50% new psoitions

is that a start?

Guys it simply would not matter, the LRC just does not care about the conformation folks or their activities. It could end up to be a one point show and their life would go on just ducky!
The powers that be think they are 100% correct, a proper Labrador should look like what was presented 30-40 years ago.

I don't think they would care if the conformation folks boycotted. I imagine some would be glad to see us disappear entirely.
With that said.... I'm small time and can only afford so many specialties a year, since they're aren't any within a day drive. I prefer to spend my resources supporting the Potomac.

I agree that the LRC would not care if the conformation side went away. Unfortunately, the LRC still sets the 'rules', i,e, standard for the breed. So what do we do? I just don't have the resources to show only at specialties to all breed judges.

I agree - it won't make a bit of difference. The entry could drop to 5, and as long as they had their field trial they would be happy. Back in the day, they had their own stupid treasurer, Bernie Ziessow, judge the damned thing and the entry was less than 100 total - dogs, bitches, and breed. Didn't even register in their addled brain.

If you really want to get frustrated, volunteer to be a Specialty chair - and be prepared to wait forever, and make multiple attempts, to get the LRC to approve your date.... and the AKC won't approve your show without that letter from the LRC.

Boycotting probably will not make a huge difference but it might send a small message if there are only a handful of dogs entered in the conformation portion. If there is an extremely small entry they will take notice when it comes time to pay their bills.

Perhaps the conformation people should picket the field trial with signs and ask what kind of dogs those are that are running since the majority do not resemble a Labrador.

I would rather save my money than to attend the specialty and show to an all breed judge; I can enter an all breed show locally for a whole lot less money. I do feel sorry for the other breeder judge that has the misfortune of judging the specialty after the LRC's recent letter.

If you really want to "fight the good fight", then you need to get your brain out of the 6th grade, and try to be classy, mature, and open-minded.

We do have many Labradors winning today that are overdone. By that, I mean too much bone, too much coat, open coats, too deep/broad in the chest, and hardly any neck. On the other hand, field Labradors have gone to the other extreme with their long legs, thin frames, stick tails, snipey muzzles, and incorrect ears. Neither is correct.

The correct Labrador is somewhere in the middle, and I, for one, would love to see more Labradors that look like the picture in the AKC Breed Standard winning. I like the idea of returning to something more similar to the British or FCI standard, without all the negative comments and DQs.

We have to start the conversation somewhere... This "us versus them" attitude isn't getting us anywhere. We are so unlike our beloved Labradors, and more like Terriers, sometimes...

The members and friends of the Keystone Labrador Retriever Club are working hard to put on this show. How about supporting them?

If you want to get the AKC's attention, write a letter to Dennis Sprung, the president of the AKC. Or better still, write to the LRC to object to the letter.

What the National offers that the LRCP Spring Show does not, is a celebration of the Labrador Retriever, the Dog for All Reasons, and not just large conformation entries. While entries at the National are smaller, there are far more working dogs there than at the Potomac show - it is very sad given the huge number of entries at Potomac how few dogs have any working titles at all. The National offers something for everyone to enjoy - conformation, hunt tests, a working certificate, obedience, tracking agility, seminars, etc. It is too bad the club is alienating people because a true National is more than just conformation.

I agree...the LRC National celebrates the whole dog. The Dog for All Reasons and the Challenge are great programs and an opportunity to highlight the multi-talented dogs, and I believe the people who are suggesting a boycott are alienating themselves, and losing an opportunity to see everything that their dogs could be.

If you want to know why some breeders and breeder judges are upset, read the "LRC Letter" posts on this forum.

I have read the posts, and the judges that posted do seem to think it's personal and vindictive. They refer to "the tone" and "things that happened "secretly in the past."

But the standard has been the standard since the mid-90's. IT has not changed. Yet our dogs HAVE changed in a manner that the changes to the Standard were done to prevent. And we have justified it by pointing how out of standard the performance dogs are, like children in a schoolyard...."Jimmy is painting ugly pictures on the wall over there, so I'm going to paint nice pictures on the wall over here..." Just 'cause it's pretty doesn't make it right!

Read the letter. Take out the tone and look at the content. If you are not judging by the standard and these underlined/bolded passages are different that what you have looking at, then you might perceive it was personal. If that's the case maybe you need to at least think about it.

If you have been looking at the dogs in accordance with the standard, and you agree you have been judging those bolded underlined passages fairly, then WHY would you take offense? I guess I just don't understand why being reminded what is in the standard is so offensive to a judge who has to keep so many other breed standards in their head.

The Potomac show offers Rally, Obedience, Seminars, Health Clinics, - so I would have to disagree that only the Nat'l offers multiple activities. I think that Potomac has offered a WC in the past - I'm not sure if one was offered this year.

As far as obedience and field titles dogs competing in conformation - there were not many more at the Nat'l in 2011 than at Potomac this year. Yes, the Hunting Retriever dog and bitch classes were larger at the Nat'l but overall - most of the Conformation exhibits did not have other titles at either show.

As far as number of entries - there were large classes of obedience and rally this year at Potomac - comparable to like classes for the Nat'l 2011

It think it is unfair to say that only the Nat'l celebrates the Versatile Labrador

Many Lab clubs offer obedience trials with their specialties (although many do not offer anything more than conformation); however, unlike Potomac the trials are usually on the same grounds so everyone feels like they are participating in the same show and encouraged to have dogs that are versatile. How many breed clubs offer tracking tests, agility trials, obedience/rally trials, multiple hunt tests, AND working certificates? The LRC is the only one that offers them all at the same show - it is a week long celebration. In addition, they are the only one to sponsor field trials. The only other club that I can think of that offers all of the rest (although not at the same time) is Puget Sound. Also, the LRC rotates the location of their National (like other National Clubs) so that everyone has a reasonable opportunity to participate at one time or another. People are encouraged to participate in multiple venues and the All Around Dog is celebrated. I am not saying Potomac is not special, but it is a different type of show altogether and really the only focus is the breed show - I would not consider it a National Specialty at all.

I don't consider it a National Specialty, either. It is much more than that. It is an International Specialty with an emphasis on being the Breeders' Natonal. However you consider the Potomac Specialty, the National pales by comparison. This is a major ego bruise to the LRC and their attempts to be in the same league.

Anytime you offer field competitions they are not held at the same site as conformation.

Even though I am not a fan of having the obedience at another venue at Potomac - I understand that it has alot to offer the obedience competitors.

Not all events at the Nat'l are on the same grounds.

The same oppositions went on in 1915 in 'The History Of Retrievers' by Charles C. Eley between the working dogs and bench dogs…..a hundred years.

Which club are you really talking negatively about, the LRC parent club, the LRCP or both and what is your exact point? You lost me half-way through what you posted. Are you annoyed at both venues or just 1? Which of the 2 are you upset with and why? You brought both into your conversation with ambiguity. TIA for clarifying your post.

You're both comparing apples to oranges.

The last National I went to all events were on the same grounds. The venue varies yearly unlike The Potomac. I am and have been against the split of the venues at The Potomac. It is in the exact same place year after year for a long time. I'm only voicing my opinion, there was no adequate or valid reason to split the 3 which were always on the same turf since inception of the entire show.

If the location changed yearly making it difficult to remain together at The Potomac as with the LRC National, I would better understand the reason for taking Obedience & Rally indoors away from conformation. But that isn't the case. The current situation makes it almost impossible to participate in all venues where it was always possible before the split.

I have to kind of laugh because I got into the standard revision some 20+ years ago and as I understood it went back to all the UK imports. They were fabulous dogs. Dogs like Rever, Vanny, Cash, and many more. Too much dog for the field crowd. The standard was revised to try to curb the imports. The LRC vowing to not hire foreign judges. For many years after the standard revision, many all-breed judges judged the National. As of recently, many American Breeder/judges have been asked to judge.

The ironic part is, many of the foreign judges don't like overdone dogs nowadays. Many American breeder/judges put up too much dogs. Potomac hires mainly foreign judges for the classes. They put up lovely dogs. They put up dogs that closely resemble those in their home country which tend to be more moderate. The LRC still does not hire foreign judges.

The LRCP'S spring show is the breeders national. The real national. Has been for years. As far as not moving location breeders from all over the world find a way to get there every year. If you don't think it is a celebration of the Labrador you have never been there.

National club? We Labrador breeders don't need no stinking national club.

OK, so stay home. You will save money and only hurt the Host Club and Volunteers who spend countless hours to put on to put on an event that celebrates our whole breed. You might even hurt the LRC financially, so they can't donate as much to research and rescue, but the BUSINESS of the LRC will go on.

It seems the prevailing opinion here is that Labradors are not good for anything except the show ring. So we may as well split the breed and put them in the Non-Sporting group with poodles, which are unbelievably athletic, but have been "conformationed" ALMOST out of hunting.

I repeat the question, for which I still have no answer...

WHAT EXACTLY is it about the standard that we should change?

Our breed is not number in the US because they are great duck hunters. It's the great family dog that makes them so popular. Honestly how many families call you looking for a hunting dog. No they want the great addition to thier family. So I guess we should also add the CGC to the requirments of a champion. This is crazy.

"I have to kind of laugh because I got into the standard revision some 20+ years ago and as I understood it went back to all the UK imports. They were fabulous dogs. Dogs like Rever, Vanny, Cash, and many more. Too much dog for the field crowd. The standard was revised to try to curb the imports. The LRC vowing to not hire foreign judges. For many years after the standard revision, many all-breed judges judged the National. As of recently, many American Breeder/judges have been asked to judge.

The ironic part is, many of the foreign judges don't like overdone dogs nowadays. Many American breeder/judges put up too much dogs. Potomac hires mainly foreign judges for the classes. They put up lovely dogs. They put up dogs that closely resemble those in their home country which tend to be more moderate. The LRC still does not hire foreign judges."



I HATE HOW YOU HAVE A FOREIGN JUDGE JUDGE AT POTOMAC AND SELECT ALL THESE NICE MODERATE LABS, THEN THE CLUB BRINGS IN THEIR CLUB 'BUDDY' TO JUDGE BOB AND THEY PICK SOMETHING SO NOTTTT LIKE ALL THE OTHER JUDGES HAVE BEEN SELECTING ALL WEEK LONG.

Actually I get a lot of hunting inquiries here in the NW, often from all over. I get plenty of pet inquiries too, but on avg probably only sell 1-2 pups to pet homes from each litter if that in some cases. Maybe it has to do w/ the pedigree since hunting homes do tend to look for field titles.

I am not talking negatively about either club. My point is that while the Potomac currently draws the largest breed entries, it is in no way a "National" Specialty. The National is more than just a conformation show (whereas Potomac is in reality only a breed show) and highlights the versatility of the breed. I think it is sad that some of the LRC's actions has caused people to talk about boycotting a unique event that is special and brings a broader group of the Labrador community together.

I also get quite a few hunting homes per litter. My dogs are 100% show lines but I do work my dogs and my pedigrees have solid working titles behind them. I personally do not care whether this breed is #1 or dead last - I do not breed for pet homes as a lot of mixed breeds also make wonderful companions and are most likely the true #1 in numbers in family homes. If your reason for breeding is to provide families with good companions, many breeds will do the trick. I try to breed the best Labrador Retrievers possible, and believe the traits that make this a good working dog are the same that make them wonderful family companions.

The standard describes an active gun dog, and regardless whether your pet homes hunt or not, that standard should govern breeders of Labradors. If one is not interested in that, they should find another breed whose standard describes the sort of dog they would like to have, rather than changing a nice sensible breed like this one into something else.

In response to the comment about American vs. foreign judging at the Potomac. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Best of Breed at the Potomac, as judged by Mrs. Huntzinger, the same dog that was Best Veteran as judged by Ms. Charlton and Mr. Masia? Just sayin'.....

Thank you for actually voicing your opinion on the standard!

If I read correctly, you would prefer that the standard eliminate the references to hunting ability?

While I respect your opinion I have to disagree. The LRCP's spring show is my national and is the national of many other breeders and has been for a very long time.

If the only reason that you disagree is because they do not offer trials feel free to join the club and put one together. It's a week long show there is plenty of time. Volunteers are the problem. I'm sure the LRCP'S BOD would be happy to let you take this project on. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak. Shoot them an email.

The breeder's national is the LRC Potomac, just as the field person's national is the Master National. To say otherwise is somewhat ridiculous.

The LRC National falls somewhere in between with events appealing to a wide variety of competitors but I don't think you would EVER get a field person to say that the Master National is the same caliber as the LRC National.

You might want to learn the difference between a hunt test and a field trial.

At a hunt test, dogs are judged against a standard. At a field trial dogs are judged against each other. At a hunt test, every dog can pass if they meet the requirement. At a field trial, there is only ONE first place winner.

The Master National is for hunt test dogs and a noble accomplishment just to qualify. Field trial dogs can eventually earn their FC, which is a front end title equal to a CH.

Teacher- I am well versed in the difference between hunt tests & field trials, being a judge of hunt tests and having marshalled at many of both. You failed to grasp my point in that not one event is all things to all people. Nor does defining the diff between the two have anything to do with this conversation or my point. The difference between comparing the lrcp show to the lrc natl lies in that our LRC National is not revered by all as the epitome of competiton by those that specialize in whatever venue they choose to participate in at the highest level.

I think that all of the winners at this year's Potomac were very typey, beautiful dogs. No extremes from any of the judges. When I watched Best of Breed, the winner's dog and winner's bitch were very similar in style and the BOB dog from the veteran's class, again, a beautiful, typey dog that was not over done in any way fit in nicely with the rest of the line up. Do not forget that BISS, Windy, selected by a Canadian judge is also a English Champion as well. A lovely girl, who hunts, and is not over done in any way either.

It's easy to arm chair judge from photos or hearsay, but quite another to be up close and personal with these dogs. Put you hands on them and see if it's spring of rib, coat or actual too much weight. Then maybe you can make a qualified opinion.

With that said, when the standard changed, again it had to do in part with a number of UK imports coming in that the field people of that day thought were too extreme! Now we have the opposite as I feel many of the European dogs have changed little in type and structure and it is the American dogs that have become what the standard tried to head off some 20 years by trying and failing to keep the Labrador moderate. It just seems that many breeders, disgusted with the new standard just took the breed in a whole nuther direction!

I just find it interesting that two people can be looking at the same dog. Person #1 sees it as at a healthy weight and has proper length of leg relative to body length. Person #2 not only sees an overweight dog but one that is so obese that it is an embarrassment to the breed, and thinks it is obviously too long in body (as opposed to being too short in leg, the other option could have worked for this example too). Both people are long time Lab people who are considered to be knowledgeable by their experienced peers. Both people have the opportunity to put their hands on the dog.

How can two intelligent and experienced people look at the same dog and see so vastly different things?

I really wish someone would respond to my question. I understand why nobody did because it may seem like I was being trollish by using the phrase "embarrassment to the breed". That said, this is what some people are actually thinking. I believe that this situation, where highly qualified people are looking at these dogs and coming back with completely different evaluations, is frustratingly fascinating. We are not talking about a disagreement about whether a dog is 5 lbs overweight or not. We are talking about bitches who many would argue are 15+ lbs overweight and whose healthy weight should be closer to 65, or males who some would argue are 20 - 25+ lbs overweight and should be closer to 75. Yet another highly qualified lab person describes these same dogs as being at a healthy weight. This is a HUGE difference in perception. We are talking a difference of almost 25% of body weight. One person thinks the dog is "seriously obese" and the other describes the same dog as "all muscle". The difference can not just be attributed to bone and coat although that is clearly part of the explanation. How can this be?

When you say "looking at", you are only using your eyes. Of course, you will have different people giving a casual opinion. You cannot tell condition when a dog is in full coat without placing your hands on the dog and doing a good examination. Only then can you feel for ribs, shoulders, good musculature, etc.
This is a major problem with people criticising winning dogs, especially if they only look at photographs or video.
Would you be satisfied with a physical exam if the doctor stands back twenty feet when he tells you to say "ahhh"?

That is such a good point. You have to have your hands on the dog. I have a bitch that has been bred a couple of times and never tucked up. With coat and the fact she is broody people have commented that she is fat or asked if she is pg (pet people and when I've had her at hunt tests). I asked them to go over her and actually feel her muscle/conditioning and they have been very surprised. Even more surprised when she goes after the ducks :-)

Both Judge and Another Breeder make great points. That said, I could have and should have been more clear, but in the first of the two posts I made I did write that both observers put their hands on the dog.

Even considering bone and coat, and having the opportunity to put their hands on the dog, the two knowledgeable breeders come to completely and totally contradicting evaluations of the proper weight for a dog.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I once was with a group at a neighborhood party. One little girl was plump, putting it kindly. Her father, who is an MD commented on how cute she was and that he loved chubby children. My young sons were on a swim team at the YMCA and in great condition. I couldn't believe my ears.

My granddaughter is getting married on Sat, 10/11 so not going to be able to come. Not that I would have anyway but because I understand The Keystone LRC is going to be putting their heart and soul into this show not to mention $$$$ I am recommending everyone who boycotts send your club the equivalent of the entry fee or a small donation after the show. Spread the word so next year no one will get stuck with this dinosaur.

I do volunteer - for my own club. I live in the West and am not going to help put something together for an event that is ALWAYS in another time zone for a club that does not support anything outside its own local interests. I am very active in my local club. I also volunteer at the LRC National when it is in my time zone and put in a lot of hours to do so even though I am not a member of the LRC. I have been to the Potomac and appreciate it for what it is, but other than really large entries and the opportunity to see dogs I would not normally get to see in person, it is no different than any other breed specialty. They all have their own unique styles and themes, but they are all locally focused. The Potomac is not a celebration of the versatility of this breed and for people like myself who actively evaluate our dogs for both conformation and work ethic, it is nice to have a venue where one can see the dogs in multiple venues. Pretty is as pretty does, so to speak.

While I do not like the way the LRC has handled a lot of things, I do appreciate having a club that holds the working side of this breed with high importance. Given that many of the local breed clubs are finding it less and less important (holding basic WC's but not hunt tests, eliminating obedience from specialties, and not offering anything in the way of tracking or agility or anything else), I would expect a parent club to maintain the focus.

I think it is fine for people to see the Potomac as their version of the National - I have no interest in telling people what to do. I find it unfortunate but a reality that many people in this breed have no interest in or understanding of function while a whole other faction has no interest in form. But for me and others interested in the whole breed standard, I picture a National similar to the way the Golden Club does it, celebrating form and function, rotating the location so everyone has a chance to participate and help, etc.

I am also on the West Coast. I could be wrong, but I believe the only Labrador Club offering Hunt Tests each year is the Labrador Retriever Club of Southern California. They do 4 Junior, 4 Senior, and 2 Master tests, plus a Working Certificate Test on the Sunday, each year (April & October). There are very few "show dogs" running these tests. Some AKC CH's run the WC, but usually, that's the extent of it. This past Spring, there was definitely an increase in numbers at the Working Certificate Test. I hope that continues...

I'm not saying the show dogs have to run a Master level test, but it would be nice to see more of the dogs I see in the conformation ring at a Junior Hunt Test stake too.



Quoting: Too Bad
"I do volunteer - for my own club. I live in the West and am not going to help put something together for an event that is ALWAYS in another time zone for a club that does not support anything outside its own local interests. I am very active in my local club. I also volunteer at the LRC National when it is in my time zone and put in a lot of hours to do so even though I am not a member of the LRC. I have been to the Potomac and appreciate it for what it is, but other than really large entries and the opportunity to see dogs I would not normally get to see in person, it is no different than any other breed specialty. They all have their own unique styles and themes, but they are all locally focused. The Potomac is not a celebration of the versatility of this breed and for people like myself who actively evaluate our dogs for both conformation and work ethic, it is nice to have a venue where one can see the dogs in multiple venues. Pretty is as pretty does, so to speak.

While I do not like the way the LRC has handled a lot of things, I do appreciate having a club that holds the working side of this breed with high importance. Given that many of the local breed clubs are finding it less and less important (holding basic WC's but not hunt tests, eliminating obedience from specialties, and not offering anything in the way of tracking or agility or anything else), I would expect a parent club to maintain the focus.

I think it is fine for people to see the Potomac as their version of the National - I have no interest in telling people what to do. I find it unfortunate but a reality that many people in this breed have no interest in or understanding of function while a whole other faction has no interest in form. But for me and others interested in the whole breed standard, I picture a National similar to the way the Golden Club does it, celebrating form and function, rotating the location so everyone has a chance to participate and help, etc."

I believe that the Labrador Retriever Club of Greater Boston still holds hunt tests.

I agree. I have been to the National multiple times as well as the Potomac and I have to say, I do enjoy the National more. But I do multiple events with my dogs (who have been recipents of the Dogs for All Reasons and participated in The Challenge) It's also hard for me to get back to the Potomac as often as I would like, but I am due again.

PSLRA is another club that puts on hunt tests too.

Winnebago and LRC Potomac both have hunt tests. Huron River Supports (and runs the JH snd SH stakes) of a test as well.

PSLRA offers 2 hunt tests each year for all 3 levels and there are show dogs (often including finished Champions) running in all 3 levels. PSLRA also offers a Show N Go (Obedience and Rally), 2 Agility Trials, 2 Obedience Trials, 2 Rally Trials, 2 Working Certificate tests, a Tracking Test, 2 Specialty Shows, a B Match (with Obedience and Rally) and training days every year. There are show dogs entered in all of these events. This is a very diverse, active club and an All Around Dog is central to its charter.

I think Rose City also offers a hunt test every July and a WC in the Spring.

There are not many clubs offering more than a specialty and a field event.

I do believe the National is the only club offering all of these events during their Specialty Week.

I find the disqualifications and negative comments objectionable. Here's what I said, "I like the idea of returning to something more similar to the British or FCI standard, without all the negative comments and DQs."

The parent club needs to decide if the image of the Labrador on the AKC's Breed Standard page is their ideal and, if it is, they need to stop pushing the field-style dogs down our throats. IMO, neither the Specialty winning dogs, nor the field-style dogs look like that image.

The Specialty-Breeder judges need to take a good long look at that picture and decide if they agree that it is a good example of the breed. If so, then they should judge to that image. If not, get together, come up with what they believe a proper breed standard looks like and propose it to the Parent Club. I know many will say, "been there, done that", but it was 20 years ago. Maybe it's time to have the discussion again?

Simply judging to one's personal preference doesn't do the breed any good.