Labrador Retriever Forum
Cindy and Nancy .. I am very sorry that your wonderful win at WKC - a goal that many breeders, myself included, aspire to - has been diminished by the derogatory posts and ensuing backlash here and on FB.
I would like to take this concept further.
Nobody wants to see generic labs being put up by judges. But if we have a generation of breeders now who think generic and moderate mean the same thing...
I think this is powerful and explains a lot. Everybody wants their dog to stand out. But if what makes your dog different from the others is something that is not correct type, then that dog should not win. The winners should be the dogs who have the most correct type and structure. And for Labradors this means the right balance of all the correct, moderate traits.
I also agree that putting your hands on a dog is necessary to truly evaluate whether the dog is overweight. Too much coat and too much overall substance do look like fat. But too many people put their hands on obese dogs and still think they are at a healthy, athletic weight. I don't understand this actually. But, your eye gets used to what you see all the time and I guess that works for fingers too!
The key words here are "too much" - everyone seems to be on board with not rewarding "too little" (and evidently decisions on traits that do not appear to be enough CAN be determined without actually putting hands on a dog since those comments are made all of the time and accepted), but "too much" seems to be desirable. This breed should not "appear" heavy due to too much weight, too much coat or too much bone. Too much is just that, TOO MUCH. Putting one's hands on a dog can tell one if the reason the dog looks heavy/overly substantial is due to actually being overweight. But regardless if it is weight or having another characteristic that throws off its balance, the dog still isn't the picture of a moderate working dog.
The public thinks our dogs are fat. Breeders of other breeds think our dogs are fat. Breeders of our own breed think our dogs are fat. Veterinarians think our dogs are fat.
People who make emotionally based decisions do not change their minds when they are confronted with data that contradict their opinions. They tend to "dig-in" and find reasons to discount the data.
The reason I started this thread is because I am worried the LRC letter will be viewed as "salt on a wound", or reopening an old wound, or at the very least insensitive and arrogant. The letter may be all of the above but that should not be an excuse for us not to look at our dogs and make a rational decision as to whether or not our dogs are overweight.
Labradors in general are not shown in "fit" condition which may explain why they look different in a group of well-conditioned sporting dogs than they do surrounded by their own kind. I am not saying they are all fat, but they generally do not have the conditioning of an athlete like many breeds shown in the group. Swimmers who compete have an athletic appearance that many weekend swimmers do not, regardless of weight.
By contrast, the Goldens, which also have a lot of coat, generally are not called fat or overly heavy. They tend to have more coat than their field counterparts, but the weights themselves are not vastly different. I was talking to a top Golden breeder recently (dogs have won BISS at more specialties than I can count plus have multiple BIS awards), and her males (that are in standard 23-24 inches) all weigh 75-78 pounds. No one has ever suggested they were weedy and they are not. Her dogs are kept well conditioned and have had no issues winning at either specialties or all breed shows.
Chessies, which were also bred to hunt waterfowl (i.e. are a swimming breed), do not have chests that drop perceptibly below their elbows and their weight ranges are 65-80 pounds for a male (height range goes to 26 inches). This is a solidly built breed as well.
So when people say that Labradors need heavier bone, excess weight and deeper chests to be functional in the water, it really makes no sense. Labradors really do not need to be in excess of 100 pounds with chests barely above ground to successfully navigate cold waters. They need a solid build and a CORRECT coat.
Each breed in the Group has distinguishing characteristics that give it distinct breed type, but I would think breeds that have similar standards would not appear so vastly different, weight and substance wise. One would think the Labrador standard calls for a heavy set dog, and it does not.
