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EIC

Is there any published data or research about the numbers or percentages of dogs that 'test' affected but are asymptomatic vs dogs that test affected but are symptomatic. In other words I am wondering if the EIC test is yet able to differentiate the 'affected asymptomatic' from the 'affected symptomatic'? Where can this information be located? Thanks in advance

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I don't think they will ever concede that any dog that tests affected is truly asymptomatic. I think they will just tell you, as they told me, that the reason your dog has not yet had an episode (in my dog's case, at the age of 13) is that you have not reached your dog's threshold of stimulation necessary for it to trigger an episode.

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Thanks. Is there any data about what percentage of tested affected but asymptomatic dogs suddenly during the course of living a 'normal life' with 'normal activity' levels ie, jogging, showing, jh and sh level field work, in other words being highly
active but not trying to collapse the dog, becoming 'symptomatic'? And do the percentages or rate of incidence change when affected asymptomatic are bred to each other? Is there a more or less chance of the asymptomatic becoming symptomatic.
I'm trying to rationalize why I would not breed my group winning tested affected but asymptomatic bitch to the best dog which happens to be an EIC carrier.

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Sally, I bet Katie Minor would be happy to chat w/you by email. It seems to me the outcome is much like breeding grade 1 elbows... that you increase the severity of the issue in the offspring. Just my recollection of something I read on a field forum. Anne

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Thanks - do you have contact info for her?

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Years ago we accidentally produced two EIC affected pups. It was when the test just came out. The male's EIC blood work was at U Of Minn. The stud owner was sure his dog would be clear as several which he knew of up the line had results which just had come back as clear. Well after the breeding the studs results came back as carrier and our girl was a carrier. We tested all pups. 2 were affected, we let families know, explained EIC and how to care for pups. That was about 8 years ago or so(?). We've kept some contact and neither pup has ever had an episode. We did tell them not to let pups get overly hot and to give rest periods with exercise, so that may explain why neither has gone down. Thought this info might help in some way.

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minork@umn.edu

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Long time breeders & owners of heavily used stud dogs like myself know that the current EIC test has yet to figure out that particular gene or gene combination that will produce the special "trigger" to induce collapse in all Labradors to cause exercise induced collapse in all & any situation of a Lab that has tested affected. Unlike Optigen, which went further in their testing & data & refined their genetic test three different times, the current EIC test will not be looking further for that "trigger" that old timers like myself know exists in some affected Labs. In the meantime we are fortunate to have many choices in stud dogs & most of the stud dog owners will test their studs for your information. It is also my experience as a heavily used owner of several stud dogs that some bitch owners do not do any genetic testing on their bitches but rely upon all stud dogs to do every available genetic test. This is part of the reason why I now only keep females & do both Optigen & EIC & coat color as well as OFA & eye exams on all my girls. Perhaps there will be that special "boy" to come along that may change my mind! Good luck in your search & breeding program.

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Thanks for all the replies. I am really conflicted about this EIC thing. I've been following the thoughts of some of the most respected long time breeders and it seems to me that this EIC issue is really a non-issue. And sadly all the testing may in the end not be useful at all. Given there are so many other more serious issues to potentially deal with not to mention crippling issues ie elbow dysplasia, I am having trouble giving any credibility to EIC. I have never had a dog with the issue nor I have heard about this problem from any single dog I have placed, sold or co-owned in 20 years. It can't just be luck. So I will continue showing my Group winning and specialty placing EIC affected but ASYMPTOMATIC bitch and I will use the best stud dog I can find regardless of the EIC if the stud dog will have us. Thanks again everyone.

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It is such a shame that a breeder of 20 years thinks that it's okay to breed any dog knowing that the dog is affected no matter what the test is. If you close your eyes on this test then who's to say that other tests will also not be done to justify a breeding. Is this the message that 20 year breeders want to send to future breeders, I think not.

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Dear heartbroken - The labrador community feels sorry for you. Please tell us who you are so we can grieve with you

Re: EIC

Sally
Dear heartbroken - The labrador community feels sorry for you. Please tell us who you are so we can grieve with you


I think you speak for yourself, not the labrador community at all. I feel sorry for your puppy buyers.

A collapsing dog can be a serious issue, one that can be avoided. There is no data to support what you want to hear. The suggestion to contact Katie Minor is good advice. Why not talk to an expert?

Why did you do the test in the first place if you weren't going to use it?

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Sally, I have produced at least one affected, and believe me, it hasn't been a "non issue" to that owner and bitch. I believe I have at least one more out there who I've offered to pay the testing for who is less affected but has collapsed w/ what appears to be classic EIC symptoms when excited. The stud's owner (stud of the 2nd pup in question) sadly also refused to disclose any testing on him to me when I asked after learning my bitch was a carrier. It's real to those who have to deal with it.

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I'm with "huh?", I'm definitely not part of a labrador community that you claim to be a part of.

I am more like my beloved breed, the Labrador Retriever. Generally speaking we are loyal, trustworthy, always willing to do what our Master asks of us. We are not snarky, sarcastic, or mean-spirited.

Unfortunately, there are always those wolves in sheep's (i.e. Labrador's) clothing.

That was mean of you to be sarcastic to heartbroken.

Sally
Dear heartbroken - The labrador community feels sorry for you. Please tell us who you are so we can grieve with you

Re: EIC

Two lines of response- first, Sally, because of the EIC test, you can breed your bitch safely- just breed to a non-carrier. All the offspring will be carriers, but they will be healthy. Some of their offspring will be clear.

Second, there is nothing wrong with the EIC test. It identifies a mutation in the gene that encodes a protein involved in recycling a neurotransmitter that passes messages from neuron to muscle telling it to contract. Unless the recycling becomes critical to muscle function, the dog does not collapse. This mutation is necessary for EIC collapse to occur, but it is not sufficient. That is, a dog with the affected genotype may lack other factors that are required for a collapse. I am a retired geneticist, and I believe there are other genes involved. So the test would not be very useful if we were trying to produce collapsing dogs. But we aren't- we're trying to AVOI D producing collapsing dogs, and the test allows us to do that simply by having a clear parent in each breeding. I have produced a collapsing dog before the test was released, and I have a friend who bred a field bitch known to produce affected dogs to a conformation male to avoid the EIC gene, again before the test was available. That dog had never collapsed( he was a MH), but when the test became available he turned out to be affected, and her litter had multi- collapsing dogs in it. Long-Tw breeders have all heard stories of lines that are risky to cross. I think that you can have a line that carries a gene for a problem but lacks a modifying gene that also must be present in order for the problem to occur. If a breeder doesn't happen to do a cross that introduces the modifying gene, the problem doesn't appear. But if you happen to do a breeding that introduces that second gene, oops- you have a problem! The EIC test allows us to identify carriers of the most important gene. It does not identify any of the modifying genes, but we don't need to do that in order to prevent the condition.

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an episode came on during labor? Is this possible? I would be scared to death of a collapse at that time

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I owned an EIC affected bitch that collapsed. We talked to the researchers and they states at the time there were no documented cases of collapse during pregnancy/labor/post whelp. Our girl had 2 litters without issue. If you were truly worried, you could always schedule a c-section

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I tested my breeding Labs when the test became available and was shocked to discover three of them are affected with EIC. They have never experienced a collapse (to the best of my knowledge), nor have any of my puppy buyers ever mentioned anything -- and I try to keep in contact with them. However, now that I know, I always breed to a clear. No point perpetuating a problem -- even one that is apparently innocuous -- when it's so easy to breed around. That's not to say I haven't had moments of depression when I've discovered a male I want to use is a carrier and I can't take the risk! If my bitch were clear I would, but not when she's affected. Why saddle a poor pup with the potential for collapse if it can so easily be avoided?

One other thing for windycanyon: All of my females get the same clearances as the males.

FWIW, my affected Labs are now 9, 6 and 3 1/2. The youngest is a gorgeous male - my best home bred pup ever. On the plus side, he doesn't know or care:-) He lives a pampered life with me regardless!

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Peggy Stevens
Two lines of response- first, Sally, because of the EIC test, you can breed your bitch safely- just breed to a non-carrier. All the offspring will be carriers, but they will be healthy. Some of their offspring will be clear.

Second, there is nothing wrong with the EIC test. It identifies a mutation in the gene that encodes a protein involved in recycling a neurotransmitter that passes messages from neuron to muscle telling it to contract. Unless the recycling becomes critical to muscle function, the dog does not collapse. This mutation is necessary for EIC collapse to occur, but it is not sufficient. That is, a dog with the affected genotype may lack other factors that are required for a collapse. I am a retired geneticist, and I believe there are other genes involved. So the test would not be very useful if we were trying to produce collapsing dogs.[snip]. . . . breeders have all heard stories of lines that are risky to cross. I think that you can have a line that carries a gene for a problem but lacks a modifying gene that also must be present in order for the problem to occur. If a breeder doesn't happen to do a cross that introduces the modifying gene, the problem doesn't appear. But if you happen to do a breeding that introduces that second gene, oops- you have a problem! The EIC test allows us to identify carriers of the most important gene. It does not identify any of the modifying genes, but we don't need to do that in order to prevent the condition.


Thanks, Peggy, for explaining about the probability of modifying genes, which would explain the point of view of those who discount the EIC test because not all affected dogs collapse. We don't yet have a test for the modifying genes, and it is unlikely that there will be financial incentive to develop that test, I presume. Too bad.

Sally, I would worry about lawsuits or lemon law issues if one produces affected, collapsing dogs that one sells. Even adolescent pups have collapsed. The only other way around it if breeding an affected to a carrier would be testing all progeny, then keeping the carriers, and either euthanizing affected pups or giving them away with full disclosure. Ugh. It would be better to avoid that sad scenario, with the hit to one's reputation as well, as this is not a rare breed with no studs out there. If this carrier were the only stud dog out there, I could see culling the litter as a way forward, but I find it sad, distasteful and expensive at best, although better than selling them to the unsuspecting public. Even better: Breeding to a clear dog, one could have all pups who will be carriers and in another generation, possibly eliminate it from your lines, making it a nonissue for the future. Or one could take that clear grandpuppy to the carrier dog that you like so much now.

Isn't there a close, clear relative of his who is just as nice if he is from a good line with great depth of quality vertically and horizontally in the pedigree? I'd try to find that clear, close relative, maybe his sire, brother, or son. Then I'd plan a line breeding back to that carrier stud if the get, grandget, and other factors work well for that scenario. I do understand thinking outside the box while brainstorming, but it could be very sad if you do this breeding and get all affecteds, as the dice doesn't always fall as probability would suggest. How many have bred a yellow to a black carrying yellow, wanting a yellow girl, but gotten all blacks or all boys, because stuff happens. Good luck with your decisions, Sally.

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I also assume the stud dog owner has a say in such a breeding, and as the owner of an EIC carrier stud, I would never allow him to be bred to anything but a tested clear bitch. I have had breeders ask if I would make an exception, which surprised me, but I am not willing to risk producing affected dogs when it is such an easy thing to breed around.

I too have been disappointed to learn the stud I really liked was an EIC carrier (my bitches have all been carriers), but like another poster suggested, I have been able to find relatives or an equally nice pedigree on a clear dog. I also looked at dogs I otherwise might not have thought of. There are a lot of nice stud dogs out there, and more and more people are testing their boys, so finding a nice EIC clear boy is much easier now than it was a few years ago when few were testing and there were more unknowns than anything else.

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babslabs


One other thing for windycanyon: All of my females get the same clearances as the males.

FWIW, my affected Labs are now 9, 6 and 3 1/2. The youngest is a gorgeous male - my best home bred pup ever. On the plus side, he doesn't know or care:-) He lives a pampered life with me regardless!


I'm not sure what or why you were referencing me here, but I just wanted to add that my girls are tested for everything as well. The 2 pups I referenced as being Affected (or suspected in case 2) were born prior to the release of the test. With the test, we never should produce an EIC (or CNM, or PRA) affected pup again thankfully.

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I would not provide a service with my EIC carrier dog to a carrier or affected bitch. I would definitely not breed an affected of my own to any carrier or affected. While there still seems to be a lot to learn about the various triggers and thresholds, if we believe in the test enough to send in our money and get it done, I think we need to listen to the people who are dedicated to helping us avoid problems in our breed. Surely there's a male out there that one could find that is clear that is also a compliment to the female.

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If you really do not believe in the validity of the test do not waste your money, the answer is simple. Do not test your bitches.

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Sorry; I should have referenced Pauline Mortier, not you. She mentioned that she only has girls now because bitch owners expect the stud dogs to have all the clearances. Mea culpa.

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babslabs
Sorry; I should have referenced Pauline Mortier, not you. She mentioned that she only has girls now because bitch owners expect the stud dogs to have all the clearances. Mea culpa.


Gotcha, thanks! :)

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Peggy Stevens
Two lines of response- first, Sally, because of the EIC test, you can breed your bitch safely- just breed to a non-carrier. All the offspring will be carriers, but they will be healthy. Some of their offspring will be clear.


EXCELLENT post Peggy - thank you! And thank you for taking ownership of your post, just as \\\'heartbroken\\\' did. (It is easy enough to just hover over his email address to see who he is, or to write to him and ask).