Labrador Retriever Forum
7 days on, 7 days off, then another 5 days on.
Giardia is everywhere. Most warm blooded animals (including humans) harbor it. Nervous diarrhea? More than likely it's giardia. I read somewhere that giardia is the most under-diagnosed ailment in the world.
Over time the body becomes more and more immune to it, until it gets stressed. Stress from weaning is what usually brings it on in puppies. Stress of leaving their breeder is what usually brings it on once they leave to their new homes.
Once you have it, you have it for life. To get it out of an environment, you'd need a blow torch.
I only treat for symptoms anymore. If cysts show up in the stool, but the stools are normal, we let it go. Giardia has become very resistant to Flagyl, which is why the panacur is recommended for it now.
According to the Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook 5th edition:
Precautions - Metronidazole is contraindicated in animals hypersensitive to the drug or nitroimidazole derivatives. It has also been recommended not to use the drug in severely debilitated, pregnant or nursing animals. Metronidazole should be used with caution in animals with hepatic dysfunction. If the drug must be used in animals with significant liverimpairment, consider using only 25-50% if the usual dose.
Reproductive/Nursing Safety - In a separate system(from the human evaluation)evaluating the safety of drugs in canine and feline pregnancy(Papich 1989), this drug is categorized as in class: C (these drugs may have potential risks. Studies in people or laboratory animals have uncovered risks, and these drugs should be used cautiously as a last resort when the benefit of therapy clearly outweighs the risks.)
Adverse Effects/Warnings - Adverse effects reported in dogs include neurologic disorders, lethargy, weakness, neutropenias, hepatotoxicity, hematuria, anorexia, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea. Neurologic toxicity may be manifested after acute high dosages or, more likely, with chronic moderate to high-dose therapy. Neurologic toxicity may be manifested after acute high dosages or, more likely, with chronic moderate to high-dose therapy. Some symptoms are anorexia, vomiting, depression, head-tilt,tremors, seizures, rigidity and stiffness.
Dosage - 25mg/kg every 12 hours for 8 days or 30-60mg/kg once daily for 5-7 days(also for trichomoniasis)
thank you Brenda
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also just received this post from a friend that had problems with Giardia. She wrote to the Dr Nolan who is the Parasitologist at University of Pennsylvania Veterinary Medicine.
This is what he wrote back:
I don't think you will ever get rid of Giardia from you kennel, but you should be able to get it down to a level where it isn't causing problems. In fact, you probably want your older puppies to get Giardia in order to develop an immunity to it, or at least vaccinate them against it so they have some immunity before they see it. I don't recommend metronidazole for Giardia, unless it doesn't respond at all to fenbendazole. Metronidazole only cures about 70% of the dogs, while fenbendazole's cure rate is
much higher. Also, metronidazole, in rare cases, may lead to diarrhea caused by Clostridium difficile, a bacteria.
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In another email he wrote:
It looks like your management practices are almost perfect!
I would suggest you drop the metronidazole from your arsenal as it is not needed (the fenbendazole will get rid of the Giardia, as well as any hookworms or ascarids) and it may cause trouble when it is stopped as it changes the types of bacteria that are found in the gut, thus it may lead to an overgrowth of certain types preventing a normal flora from getting established. Also, you will be saving some money by not using this unnecessary drug.
Since you are not having problems with fleas, you shouldn't have any problems with tapeworms. Thus you do not need the praziquantel that is found in Drontal Plus. In regard to your original question about switching to Drontal Plus, I do not see any benefits to using it, given the management schemes you have in place!
A dose of anthelmintic should be given 4 weeks after the pups are weaned. Normally in your area this would be one of the monthly parasite control drugs that also prevent heartworm. I am guessing that this time period would be after you sell the pups, but if they are still in your care and the 4 week post-weaning time point falls outside of your 2 weeks of fenbendazole, be sure to give them something that will kill ascarids (pyrantel).
With regard to the Giardia, in addition to your current fenbendazole treatment between weeks 5 and 7, I would suggest you bathe (just soap and water) the pups every day for the last 3 or 4 days of the treatment in order to remove the Giardia cysts from their fur and thus prevent reinfection. I would also suggest you warn the new owners to make sure their veterinarian knows that the dog has been on fenbendazole prophylaxis for Giardia and that they ask the vet not use an antigen test for Giarida as it may still be positive for some time after the Giardia has been killed (they should be looking for cysts on a centrifugational float). This may cut down on the number of cases the vets find in your puppies!
I hope this has been of some help and I am very happy to see the steps you have taken to keep your pups parasite free!!
Sincerely,
Thomas Nolan, Ph.D.
Parasitologist
Metronidazole is an antibiotic and should not be given to young puppies since any kind of antibiotic will not be metabolized by young kidneys or livers. In nursing bitches one or two days of the medication (with the Vet's ok) will do more good than harm if the bitch needs it! That should be up to your Veterinarian and not a Forum.
Any medication should be avoided while in gestation or nursing and young puppies. What the bitch consumes will pass through the milk to the puppies. Yes, Metronidazole may cause seizures with prolonged use.
I have an older Labrador that has to be on medication for a constant loose stool condition, and my Vet has changed her from Metronidazole to Tylan powder.
Please always ask your Vet before asking a Forum.The Forum is excellent for discussing the affects of what your Vet suggested, to compare notes and learn.
that is all this post is...is a discussion.
the OP posted the first time to get more information for a discussion.
No one is avoiding vets and giving loads of medications we were just discussing why it is bad since it has been used over the years with out caution.
In fact the majority of this post says NOT to give it to young pups so why are you slapping our hands?
Please always ask your Vet before asking a Forum.The Forum is excellent for discussing the affects of what your Vet suggested, to compare notes and learn.
Although this forum generally contains as much misinformation as information, you should be aware that many vets over-prescribe antibiotics, especially metronidazole. Many know little or nothing about young puppies and nursing females. In addition, many handlers carry antibiotics, especially metronidazole, on their vans for diarrhea and do not consult a vet or the owner before giving them. Being aware of this is a very good thing for owners.
No slapping just reminding.........if your Vet does something you think is not what you feel is right then you have a right to question them and ask questions that concern you. My Vet told me not to over dose and not to give it prolonged etc. A good Vet will know the latest on all medications and like human Dr's always question them. If they don't have the right answers or poo poo you, then move on to a better Vet. Sorry I upset anyone with my posting.
this discussion post went well as I did receive links and information I was looking for.
I for one was a breeder that used fishzole on a pup causally, but now will think twice, since I already use panacur 3 days I should not have a reason for fishzole anymore
thanks to all that posted.
Anything in the hands of someone who does not know how to use it, can be dangerous.
I know of someone who KILLED her dog by overdosing with Metronidazole as per her vets instructions.
I for one was a breeder that used fishzole on a pup causally, but now will think twice, since I already use panacur 3 days I should not have a reason for fishzole anymore
thanks to all that posted.
I for one did not know this and am happy that it appeared her .... I know now to be very careful and will look twice as to what the vet is giving
My thanks to the OP and all who posted
I am not a Lab breeder but was searching for answers about metronidazole that has been prescribed for my nursing bitch. This forum has best addressed my questions.My bitch had severe diarrhea after whelping and has been on this drug 3 days.My vet said nothing about the dangers of the drug to me.She is my regular vet ,and my bitch had a clear fecal before being bred,and no tests have turned up anything definite.I am distressed at what I am reading about this drug and nursing bitches.So far my pups look fine,but I think I will discontinue this drug.I plan to call my vet tomorrow.I already e mailed her.Has anyone here had a similar experience?Any advice will be appreciated.
My repro vet has had me use this drug (1 pill a day) for 2 days, maybe 3. We always stop when the bowel movement is better (in other words not squirting, just soft-serve). It is not a great drug to use, but in the case of the bitch I used it on - she could have gone on to have hemarragic (sp?) colitis and we were trying to avoid that.
In many cases the concerns about using certain drugs is that the fetus/neonate/young pup's liver is not fully functional and cannot processes the drug as an adult's body can. Often that means when one of these drugs is needed, the dose is lowered and the time frame is reduced.
The posts about Panacur are absolutely correct, it is the current drug of choice for giardia. Also a good idea to bath the affected dog (especially back end) as the giardia cysts are sticky.
Regarding Forti-flora- while I have no doubt that it is helpful in dogs with giardia, I am aware of NO claim that it actually helps treat it and would NOT recommend it as sole treatment for giardia. (I would say it helps dogs recover by improving the normal gi flora). Also remember that Giardia is zoonotic- so treating those dogs is important!
