Check out this story. I thought I had it bad when I had to recently protect my Lab from a fast approaching nasty Rottie. I only had to chop him in the chest! Though I would wrestle a bear if need be to protect my boy-
www.startribune.com/local/17247504.html

has anyone been seeing this kind of thing more and more?? (this is the third letter I have gotten from a client like this)

Hey XXX:

Bella got spayed at 7 mos old this past week.

Also, while she was under the vet X-Rayed her hips to see the condition of them (in the event of future problems) - he said her hips were the best he has seen in an English Lab pup.

My question is...what are vets doing x-raying pups as a routine while they are spaying, they have another year of growing to do??? Are they shopping for hip replacment surgeries, what is up with this???

Most veterinary surgeons where I live do this.
They may as well while the dog is under anaesthetic and it does give them some insight if there are problems later on.
I don't see how this is different to doing pre-lims on a youngster and this pet family has given you valuable feedback as to what your programme is producing.
I am not sure why you are angry, I would be happy :)

I agree. I'd be happy about the xrays but upset about the age of the spay....but thats just me.

What is wrong with a spay at 7 months old?
What age is best. I would want to have it done before the first heat so 7 months sounds about right to me.

the reason I'm angry is about the one that comes back as "iffy", and I know just as well as you that if we x-rayed at 24 mos, it would be fine. But at 7 or 8 months they are trucking a puppy right in for hip replacement surgery?????
If you ask me, its "cha-ching" $200 more for x-rays on top of the spay...and they make the family feel like they are "helping in case there is a problem in the future" what then???? surgery right away?? I don't get it...oh yeah, and the "cha-ching" of a hip replacement surgery???? oh then, another down the road after the dog grows another year???

Sorry, I just don't get the purpose of this except $$$

How many of us have had a pup at 11 or 12 mos be "borderline" or fair, then at 24 mos of OFA comes back as good or excellent? It happens.
And because of some vet trying to get some early $$$ we get the phone call that says "oh, you sold me a borderline hip displaysia dog" Sorry, I don't want to ever get that call, but I can see it coming if vets start doing these x-rays so routinely, and so early

By me they'll X-ray while they are under. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, it's their money. I thought most prefer the owners wait 1 year before spay/neuter so that they have time to grow? .

I agree w/cha-ching. If it's not broke don't fix it.
If the pup wasn't lame/limping prior to rads (during a castration/spay) it is a money thing. I agree to
rads if the pup has been limping.

Angry...you really shouldn't be unless you're not breeding cleared bitches and stud dogs. A lot of vets do what you mentioned. You should be happy to see clear joints as you know what you're producing in your pets also.

I had a lab years back that was diagnosed at 7 mo. with severe subluxation. He was showing signs of lameness so I had his prelims done then.

Another Poster said..
"What is wrong with a spay at 7 months old?
What age is best. I would want to have it done before the first heat so 7 months sounds about right to me."

If you don't know I would believe you're not a lab breeder. You're probably a pet owner that has been told by their vet to spay young. The vets that do this do so to make their job easier. If a bitch has not gone through a heat and is younger it is easier to remove their organs.

It is best to allow any puppy bitch to go through one heat prior to spay waiting 2 mo. after the heat. It is the same with a puppy boy. It is best to wait to neuter until over 12 mo. I prefer closer to 24 mo. in pets. It allows their skeleton and other body parts to grow properly. If we can't trust the puppy buyer then we shouldn't work with them. You learned something new today.

ok, here's an example, a dog goes in for a nueter at 8 mos, the vet x-rays since under anesthesia...dog had NO signs of limping, NO symptoms, nothing, x-ray shows one hip as "borderline"...owner flips out...calls breeder and says, "bad breeder....noooooooooooo...(rubs nose in "oh, I thought you were a good breeder" line)

and breeder knows both parents are good and excellent hips, knows at 24 mos it will be fine, but must refund $$ on dog because vet jumps gun, buyer feels "ripped" off, and can't be patient and wait until NON limping NON symptomatic dog turns 24 mos to find out all is fine once the joints finish growing. True Story.

I thought this was a thread about the x-ray, nothing to do with the 7 mos old spay thing. can we get back to the subject please??

I thought this was a thread started about the x-raying, not an issue of what age to spay a bitch?

I agree that this is a money thing for a lot of vets. They don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. IMO, there is no reason for pet people to ever pay for x-rays if their dogs aren't lame. A lot of dogs that are diagnosed as mildly dysplastic by the OFA are asymptomatic their entire lives. Why insist on freaking people out when their dogs may never limp a day in their lives? My opinion has nothing to do with not wanting to honor my guarantee. I have no problem doing so if a dog has a genuine problem. That's what it's there for. In any case, 7 months is quite young to be looking for "possible future problems." I don't know of many breeders who prelim this young. It is not and should not be routine.

I only replace dogs with bad hips if it has been diagnosed with Pennhip(the xray that we use to screen our breeding stock) but you can say diagnosed by OFA also. We dont care about Vets opinions.Its in our contract that puppy buyers sign and it is explained at the time they sign it.

well said

that's a good idea to make clear to customers, and in our guarantee.

I don't think this is a big deal. The vet probably charges very little since the dog is already under anesthesia. Now if this dog ever comes up limping, they won't be looking in the wrong direction. Think Lymes or pano. Also if the family was at all inclined toward performance events, they would know it would not be detrimental. I think you are getting all upset about nothing.

Well you must have a really good crystal ball thats all I can say. I don't know how anyone can KNOW that a borderline dog will be good at 2 years. If that were true then nobody would bother with prelims!
Most hip guarantees I have seen say the dog must be two years old and severely displastic for the guarantee to apply.
I don't think you are going to stop vets having a look at the hips whilst spaying or neutering, it happens a lot.
Maybe try educating the puppy buyers, and checking your guarantee?

You can put your head in the sand if you want and blame it on the vets, but it is good medicine. There are supplements that can be given to help prevent the formation of arthritis and if given soon enough it will slow it down. You can also recommmend the type of exercise this particular dog should have to help him lead a normal life. You can also urge the people to keep the dog's weight down if he does have dysplasia. Information is knowledge! And no good ortho doctor will do surgery on an asymptomatic dog. It is not to find surgeries, but to help the dog as much as possible. I encourage it as a breeder and as a vet. I also do my own pups (labs and goldens) at 5-6 months as a screening--at least I can tell if they have hip sockets or not! And I know what I have if I decide to find them a new home.

I agree that information is knowledge, but almost everything you mentioned is common sense with a Labrador anyway. Puppy owners should be told what types of exercise are good for their new puppies and which are not. And IMO, all pet Labradors should be kept lean because of their tendency to be overweight and the added pressure on their joints whether they have been diagnosed with HD or not. I’m sorry, but I’ve been taken advantage of and paid out the nose by vets in the past when my first puppy was suffering from severe allergy symptoms. Once when he got really sick, I even paid $1,700 for an unnecessary surgery because the vet told me my puppy might die if I didn’t. I found out later, from another vet and another test result, that they cut my dog open for no reason and realized that they scared me into spending the money for it. To me, a vet recommending an x-ray be done when there’s nothing wrong with the dog is nothing more than an attempt to scare people into spending more money. So you can bury your head in that sandbox if you choose, but it happens. I have wised up over the years and found a vet I trust who listens to me and we learn from each other. But that didn’t come easy and it didn’t come cheap.

I love the vets in my area, but they cannot read a hip xray. For my OFA displastic dog they said he was great... and for my OFA excellent dog - they said she had a small issue. Only one vet in my area admits that he and OFA do not see eye to eye and he always tells his clients that OFA are the experts. Most of his clients do not opt to send in xrays to OFA because their animals are pets, unfortunately.
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