Labrador Retriever Forum

General Forum
Start a New Topic 
Author
Comment
EIC Negative collapsing

Have you ever had this happen to you? If you can prove it, then I'll stop testing and will not consider this test reliable at all. If you get positive that do not collapse is ok, that's not what I'm asking.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Sorry; I know this doesn't answer your question but it bothers me so I want to put it out there.

I recently tested several of my dogs to discover that I own three affecteds ranging in age from 2 1/2 to 6 years old that have never collapsed. Given those results I suspect many of the pups I've sold would test affected too but none of my pet people have ever reported a collapse, and I keep in touch with them. My vet doesn't see collapses in her practice very often either, and she is part of a huge vet group that treats a high percentage of Labradors. She suspects there is more involved than a simple recessive.

I am not saying this to cast doubt on the test, just saying that it puzzles me. There's apparently more to it than meets the eye. One of the three affecteds I have is quite high strung and has been active in very hot, humid weather, so I don't undestand why he hasn't collapsed.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Sure, because there are other reasons for the collapses. Heat exhaustion (which affects the dog longer than the avg EIC event does, seizures, and certain heart issues have been amongst the other issues to rule out. See this page for some other info: http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/taylor2008/home.html

I had an EIC Clear dog (Cleared 2x-- once in the research phase and once w/ the official test) come staggering to me after an intense fence run w/ the neighbors dogs one unusually humid summer day. I could have sworn at that moment the EIC test was wrong but lo and behold, she wasn't coming around even after cooling her w/ the garden hose for several minutes (temp was VERY high-- ~108F if I recall). After a half hour or longer, I loaded her up and took her to the vet 24 min away and she was almost to the point of seizuring. I had cooled her to the perfect temp (103F) and put her in the front seat near the AC vents going full blast. She had heat stroke, which was definitely more severe and longer lasting than EIC, but hey, it was a collapse. A related dog from a different litter is EIC Affected and has collapsed several times while playing Chuck It and while upland hunting. We know the difference here and yes, are both taken very seriously.

ETA: I think that unless the vets OWN some collapsing dogs personally, they are less likely to put the EIC label out there. Face it, if the event is over w/ in 15-20 min typically, how many vets ever see one? It takes me longer than that to get to my vet.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

facts on the ground
Have you ever had this happen to you? If you can prove it, then I'll stop testing and will not consider this test reliable at all. If you get positive that do not collapse is ok, that's not what I'm asking.


Yes, I have had an EIC negative collapse. Heat Exhaustion. Very scary. I thought he was going to die.

Tested him to see if he was affected and he came back clear.

This is why the EIC hysteria is so funny to me. Unless your dog collapses in the water, the chances of death are low with EIC collapses.

More dogs die every year from hanging themselves on fences wearing collars than die of EIC collapses, yet the labrador community has been convinced this test is the end all be all.

While I believe EIC exists, and I believe that the test identifies one part of the puzzle, I don't believe the test is taking into account a possible trigger, and I don't think EIC is as big a deal as everyone makes it.

I truly hope the hysteria dies down soon, because this endless debate is frustrating.

More dogs die every year choking on bones - should we start testing for airway size in breeding dogs?

More dogs die every year by drowning - should we make all potential breeding dogs pass "swimmers ed"?

More dogs die every year by bloat - can we please make a test for this?

Many more dogs die every year from heat stroke. Mine was probably close to it when I noticed his behavior and began treating him.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

ok, I'm looking for dogs that collapse with no obvious reasons of Heat exhaustion, seizure or heart syncope. True EIC collapse.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

You want evidence for a "true" EIC collapse on a tested clear dog, right? By definition this is impossible. The means of identifying a "true" EIC collapse is to determine genetically if the dog has EIC with the test. If the dog is tested clear, EIC would be ruled out and some other cause for the collapse would be sought. You are tilting at windmills.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

facts on the ground
ok, I'm looking for dogs that collapse with no obvious reasons of Heat exhaustion, seizure or heart syncope. True EIC collapse.


If the arguement that EIC has been mistaken for heat stroke for all these years is true, and if the UM website is true when it says that EIC collapses occur more often in hotter/more humid temps, when panting a lot (hyperventilation), then EIC dogs usually have obvious signs that can be confused with heat stroke.

Check out this quote from UM on differentiating between the two because the signs are so similar.
UM
DIFFERENTIATING EIC FROM HEAT STROKE

There have been a number of good veterinary reviews of heat stroke in dogs recently and the syndrome we are seeing with EIC is very different. With heat stroke - induced collapse in dogs you expect to see a very slow or prolonged recovery that can take hours to days, or else progression to death. Laboratory evaluation reveals a dramatic increase in muscle enzymes (CK usually 7-11X normal). Mentation changes that are severe, progressive and persistent (for hours to days) occur in 80% of affected dogs and significant endothelial injury leads to microvascular thrombosis, DIC, thrombocytopenia and bleeding as well as acute renal failure in most patients. In contrast, dogs with EIC collapse without showing laboratory abnormalities and they recover quickly - happy and running around within 5 to 25 minutes.


EIC is such a blown out of porportion disease.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

There is something on the University of Minnesota website that calls out a different type of seizure that they are beginning to think about for a study:

Atypical Collapse in Labrador Retrievers

An episodic movement disorder that may be a form of atypical seizure has been recognized in Labrador Retrievers. This disorder has been called atypical epilepsy, paroxysmal dyskinesia, episodic dyskinesia and Chinook seizures. Affected dogs are normal between the episodes which occur suddenly, without warning. Some affected Labradors simply stagger and look dazed for a few seconds and then recover, without ever falling over. Others have a 2 to 5 minute episode (occasionally longer) where they appear anxious and are unable to stand erect and walk, experiencing either uncontrollable trembling or muscular rigidity as they attempt to crawl. Affected dogs maintain consciousness and can obey commands during the episodes. Some Labrador Retrievers have exercise or excitement as an apparent trigger for their episodes, prompting consideration of disorders that cause exercise intolerance (especially cardiac arrhythmias, low blood sugar or EIC). Some dogs with this disorder will develop more classical generalized tonic-clonic seizures later in life where they lose consciousness and paddle their limbs.

This syndrome has not yet been well characterized but we are suspicious that this is an inherited form of epilepsy in Labrador Retrievers. If your Labrador Retriever has had 2 or more episodes that fit this description we would like your help as we try to describe the syndrome and search for the genetic cause. Please take the time to fill out the questionnaire and send us a DNA sample and pedigree from your affected dog. If you have a video of your dog having an episode we would like to have the opportunity to view that as well.

Thanks,

Toni
www.retrieverlife.com

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

breeder50
EIC is such a blown out of porportion disease.


Not in the opinion of hunting or competition homes who have Affecteds. Not all of our Labs are full time couch or lawn ornaments. That's the thing that bothers me about these discussions. I've produced one who happens to be in an avid hunting home. She's awesome-- everything they wanted in a dog as a pet and hunter. Unfortunately he doesn't feel lucky enough to take her in water now.

It is also not blown out of proportion for those in pet homes who have had to carry their beloved dog home from the park after collapsing while playing w/ the kids or whatever either. It is scary for them! They have no idea why their dog went down, and rush them to the vet for all kinds of testing. Do we really want this for our puppy owners? These are Labradors for gosh sakes. They are supposed to be active, happy retrievers and swimmers. I just wonder what planet others are on to say this is all blown out of proportion. Yes, it's no comparison to TVD but WE HAVE A TEST FOR THIS.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

This is the case I'm talking about:
Dog tested EIC clear.
Dog is out playing hard with other dogs or in a hunt trial for 20 minutes.
It is spring, temp: 80 F. Dog is very excited
Dog collapses. Conscious, but dragging his back legs. Still wants to go an retrieve that ball.
It is my dog, so I know the dog is Echo heart clear.
Never had a seizure or atypical seizure before.
Dog temperature is a little high on 103.
Dog recovers completely 20 minutes latter after stopping all exercise.

Have you ever seen a case like this one?

http://youtu.be/y8Uq8NFaYqM

http://youtu.be/l7wE471AuGE

http://youtu.be/byBkZZ5QChg

http://youtu.be/kdolNLwxImM Not sure this one is EIC???

http://youtu.be/MdifQO2qevg Atypical Epilepsy

What I'm trying to say is that a clear is always a clear. An affected is not always phenotypically affected even when it is genetically affected.
Use the test intelligently for what it is worth.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Toni
There is something on the University of Minnesota website that calls out a different type of seizure that they are beginning to think about for a study:

!!!!! I bet they would like another study, how much will that test be?!!!!



Atypical Collapse in Labrador Retrievers

An episodic movement disorder that may be a form of atypical seizure has been recognized in Labrador Retrievers. This disorder has been called atypical epilepsy, paroxysmal dyskinesia, episodic dyskinesia and Chinook seizures. Affected dogs are normal between the episodes which occur suddenly, without warning. Some affected Labradors simply stagger and look dazed for a few seconds and then recover, without ever falling over. Others have a 2 to 5 minute episode (occasionally longer) where they appear anxious and are unable to stand erect and walk, experiencing either uncontrollable trembling or muscular rigidity as they attempt to crawl. Affected dogs maintain consciousness and can obey commands during the episodes. Some Labrador Retrievers have exercise or excitement as an apparent trigger for their episodes, prompting consideration of disorders that cause exercise intolerance (especially cardiac arrhythmias, low blood sugar or EIC). Some dogs with this disorder will develop more classical generalized tonic-clonic seizures later in life where they lose consciousness and paddle their limbs.

This syndrome has not yet been well characterized but we are suspicious that this is an inherited form of epilepsy in Labrador Retrievers. If your Labrador Retriever has had 2 or more episodes that fit this description we would like your help as we try to describe the syndrome and search for the genetic cause. Please take the time to fill out the questionnaire and send us a DNA sample and pedigree from your affected dog. If you have a video of your dog having an episode we would like to have the opportunity to view that as well.

Thanks,

Toni
www.retrieverlife.com

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

windycanyon
breeder50
EIC is such a blown out of porportion disease.


Not in the opinion of hunting or competition homes who have Affecteds. Not all of our Labs are full time couch or lawn ornaments. That's the thing that bothers me about these discussions. I've produced one who happens to be in an avid hunting home. She's awesome-- everything they wanted in a dog as a pet and hunter. Unfortunately he doesn't feel lucky enough to take her in water now.

It is also not blown out of proportion for those in pet homes who have had to carry their beloved dog home from the park after collapsing while playing w/ the kids or whatever either. It is scary for them! They have no idea why their dog went down, and rush them to the vet for all kinds of testing. Do we really want this for our puppy owners? These are Labradors for gosh sakes. They are supposed to be active, happy retrievers and swimmers. I just wonder what planet others are on to say this is all blown out of proportion. Yes, it's no comparison to TVD but WE HAVE A TEST FOR THIS.


You know, I am so tired of your sanctimonious crap Anne!

I grew up around the field type labs who were actual hunting dogs. My family has bred field trial dogs, and I began with bench style labs several years ago.

My dogs are NOT couch potatoes. They hunt, they run tests, several of my puppies are in ACTUAL hunting homes.

MY DOGS ARE NOT LAWN ORNAMENTS!!!!

Just because your dogs have fallen out doesn't mean your dogs do more than mine. This backs up what I believe which is there is another factor the test doesn't look at. Some trigger.

I have had a dog go down due to heat exhaustion and it was incredibly scary so I know what the families experience when they "have had to carry their beloved dog home from the park after collapsing while playing w/ the kids" Oh my goodness, dramatic much? The only difference is, with heat stroke the recovery is more difficult and chance of death is much higher. That family may be shocked, but they get their happy go lucky dog back after 20 minutes or so.

Get over yourself why don't you. Many of us are tired of hearing it.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

breeder50
Just because your dogs have fallen out doesn't mean your dogs do more than mine. This backs up what I believe which is there is another factor the test doesn't look at. Some trigger.



And I agree with you - a trigger, a threshold, an error in another part of the dog's metabolism ..... something that causes some dogs with both genes to collapse, while others do not.

I have dogs that test as Affecteds, that have never collapsed. But I don't discredit the test. I am grateful that I now have a way of never producing any Affecteds that MIGHT collapse - because we don't know what the missing piece of the puzzle is yet, and we may never know.

This is the point trying to be made - that Carriers are FINE - its Affecteds that we don't want to produce.

EIC isn't blown out of proportion; deciding to breed with more knowledge is what's causing the hubbub. If we are lucky we will have tests for TVD and genetic forms of Epilepsy in the not-too-distant future. It's not about producing ugly dogs that have been tested for everything under the sun; it's about producing beautiful, functional dogs that may be carriers of conditions but won't manifest those conditions themselves, or in their offspring.

Simple, huh?

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Good grief I can not wait for this EIC hysteria to go away. Oh we must have a EIC tested stud dog but we only check our bitches heart with an ascultation???? Give me a break. This EIC hysteria is so out of control. It is the ONLY thing some breeders are using to determine what stud dog to use to IMPROVE their breeding lines????!!! There is more to improving a breeding line and a bitch than with a EIC test! A test that many do not believe in, a fairly new test out on the market that some are treating like the gospel. Breeding paper to paper with hysteria over EIC. Where was this hysteria, collapsing and EIC 5,10,20,30 years ago in our breed?

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

I have heard of negatives & carriers collapsing but not mine as I have nothing but clear. I can't prove it, so I test. It's another *tool* as many of you call clearances. I put my *tools* in the order of importance. Allergies, yes Allergies!, Epilepsy and TVD are at the tippy-top of my health list. Ever see a severely allergic dog rip itself to pieces? Same reply as mine about EIC as I haven't ever seen a collapsing dog of my own or any of the dozens of breeders I know. You don't want Allergies in your kennel and I sure hope you wouldn't want Epilepsy or TVD either. The last two have to include what some call *pedigree research*. Done properly, Lab breeders can give themselves a good edge on not winding up with those 2 until testing is available. Until then, echo dopplar testing for TVD and staying away from lines we know have produced a good amount of either disease is best.

I wish the University of Minnesota would do further studies or testing into the negatives and carriers collapsing in our breed & other breeds. Why do many dogs that are hard worked, in brutal heat; test affected yet never collapse in an entire lifetime? I don't know and the same for the reverse. There has to be something the researchers haven't located yet. It might be small so I'll test but EIC is not at the top of my *tool* list. The other diseases can be far worse and the tools for them should be used as much as the EIC tool if not more so. Remember, I did not say *throw all of the babies out with the bathwater*. I also don't understand why some breeders will line-breed on known producers of certain diseases. Just bcuz they make beautiful puppies sick or not and they only want dogs that will have a better chance of winning? If so, that's incredibly sad.
~jmho.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Where was this hysteria, collapsing and EIC 5,10,20,30 years ago in our breed?

It was not discussed because most show breeders thought it was a form of epilepsy... and everyone knows you don't EVER admit your dog had a seizure!! Nearly 20 years ago, I had a dog that collapsed with EIC. Scared the heck out of me! I was so glad when the research was announced so that I had a REASON for the collapse. The dog was tested affected some 12 years later. It was quite a relief to know it was not a seizure disorder.

Some of the clear dogs today that collapse probably DO have a type of seizure disorder (see U of M website). Be careful bragging that your clear dog collapsed in order to cast doubt on the EIC test - others might see the collapse as a sign of something far worse for which there is no test.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

breeder50
You know, I am so tired of your sanctimonious crap Anne!

I grew up around the field type labs who were actual hunting dogs. My family has bred field trial dogs, and I began with bench style labs several years ago.

My dogs are NOT couch potatoes. They hunt, they run tests, several of my puppies are in ACTUAL hunting homes.

MY DOGS ARE NOT LAWN ORNAMENTS!!!!

Just because your dogs have fallen out doesn't mean your dogs do more than mine. This backs up what I believe which is there is another factor the test doesn't look at. Some trigger.

I have had a dog go down due to heat exhaustion and it was incredibly scary so I know what the families experience when they "have had to carry their beloved dog home from the park after collapsing while playing w/ the kids" Oh my goodness, dramatic much? The only difference is, with heat stroke the recovery is more difficult and chance of death is much higher. That family may be shocked, but they get their happy go lucky dog back after 20 minutes or so.

Get over yourself why don't you. Many of us are tired of hearing it.


And why don't you pull up your big girl (or boy) pants and have the courtesy of calling me out w/ a real name? I hope to hell someday if I inquire on one of your well rounded studs that you have the decency to repeat to me what you just said so I can take my $$$ elsewhere. If you are so hung up about this, I can't imagine you'd be honest about anything else. Anne

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

What all this makes me wonder is why anyone who cares about their dogs work them in the heat of summer to start with? Anyone with half a brain knows that dogs can go down from heat stroke, or what ever in the heat. Dogs on their own usually will lay in the shade on a hot day. Some won't and they have to be kept in a cool area for their own safety in that kind of weather. I know clubs hold HRT tests in the summer, and people who are driven for the title will train their dogs in the heat of the day, but what does that say about them? I think it says that they care about their egos and not the welfare of their dogs. You all need to put your money where your mouth is and take better care of your dogs to avoid the situations from happening to start with. That is the real issue in my opinion.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Correct me if I am wrong- the primary 200 blood samples used by UofM were collected by Dr. Sue Taylor primarily from the Saskatoon Retriever Club. From these samples they determined the link to the mutated gene on top of a gene. Since then 10,000 labs have been tested most people in the begining breeders were sending in because they thought their dog had collapsed- still only 2-5% affected. I read a lot of hunting dog forums and there seems to be a testing frenzy for everything when PRA wasn't even being tested for in the past 10 years. They test every pup from every litter. Seems over kill. And yes even in the articles from UofM they mention clear & carrier collapsing but comment it must be something other than EIC

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Common sense
What all this makes me wonder is why anyone who cares about their dogs work them in the heat of summer to start with?


It's not all about heat. Heat can contribute, but it's the excitement of something that triggers many (fun bumpers, group retrieve sessions, chuck it, etc) EIC affecteds to collapse. The 2nd time the dog I that I bred collapsed, it was spring time in W. WA (no more than 60F at the time). That's what caused me to stop and question the "heat sensitivity" issue they had had the summer prior and offered to pay for the dog to be tested.

The dog of mine here that went down to heat exhaustion/stroke did so after a neighbor walked her pack of 5 dogs past (the one really liked a game of fun fence running w/ mine that collapsed, but 2 others were dog aggressive). It was unusually humid day for this area. She had been sunbathing prior, so was likely plenty warm to begin with.

As for common sense, I'll only speak for myself, but in the heat of summer, I rarely train past 10am or before 6-7pm again unless we are doing water work. Most of my competitions are located where it's almost always 10-15F cooler than what my dogs are used to, so that's not ever been an issue. I don't know of too many people that knowingly train under hazardous conditions.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Question
Correct me if I am wrong- the primary 200 blood samples used by UofM were collected by Dr. Sue Taylor primarily from the Saskatoon Retriever Club. From these samples they determined the link to the mutated gene on top of a gene. Since then 10,000 labs have been tested most people in the begining breeders were sending in because they thought their dog had collapsed- still only 2-5% affected.


I don't think this is correct because they also collected cheek swabs from several field trials as well as the LRC Natl in 2007, which is when I sent in most of my dogs. I assumed mine would be clear and was surprised when about half came back Carriers. I resubmitted a couple that I wanted to double check-- one Clear, one Carrier-- after the test was done and results were the same. I probably won't worry about the offspring from Clear to Clear but will test the ones from Carrier to Clear just so I know.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Two of the 200 initially used to develop the test were my dogs - from English show lines. One was affected (the one that collapsed) and the littermate was a carrier. There were several other "show" dogs in the initial group because they had a typical collapse. This gene mutation was not found in an isolated familial group. The samples came from a variety of lines. What the collapsing ones had in common was the mutation. The more you know about this condition, the more you will appreciate that we now have a gene test to help us breed dogs that will never have EIC.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

I appreciate these types of responses because articles published create doubt: exerpts: Uof Saskatchawan
"It was Canada Day, July 1, 2007, when Dr. Sue Taylor picked up her phone and heard the words that every scientist involved in genetic research dreams about hearing: "We found it." It was the genetic mutation responsible for exercise-induced collapse (EIC) in Labrador retrievers — a neuromuscular syndrome that the WCVM specialist in small animal internal medicine had been investigating for 12 years."
"
After years of working with blood samples collected by Taylor from more than 200 Labrador retrievers, the U of M research team identified a mutant form of the dynamin 1 gene as highly associated with EIC in the breed. The discovery, which led to an article in Nature Genetics, was the first naturally occurring mutation of the gene identified in any mammal."

"Taylor's fellow members at the Saskatoon Retriever Club voluntarily allowed her to test their dogs. "I don't think someone outside of the sport would have gained the trust of some of the people that were contacting me," explains Taylor, who also went further afield in her search for affected dogs. She wrote lay articles about the collapse syndrome research for field trial publications and garnered help from dog owners throughout North America."

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

One more thing- reason for doubting so many on identifying a collapse by EIC:
"This syndrome of Labrador Retriever Exercise-Induced Collapse is distinct from other hereditary muscle disorders which have been identified in Labrador Retrievers including:
1. Hereditary Labrador Retriever Myopathy (also called type II fiber deficiency or muscular dystrophy)- a condition where puppies (6 weeks to 6 months of age)appear stunted and develop progressive muscle weakness, exercise intolerance, an abnormal gait and muscle atrophy. Signs stabilize in most dogs by 12 to 18 months of age. While the precise undelying defect is still not known, the condition is easily diagnosed by evaluation of muscle biopsy specimens. An autosomal recessive mode of inheritance has been documented in dogs with Type II fiber deficiency.
2. Dystrophin Deficient Muscular dystrophy -a rare condition affecting very young male dogs, causing severe weakness, progressive muscle atrophy and greatly elevated muscle enzymes (CK). Diagnosis is by detection of the elvated CK in a young pup, identification of pathologic changes in a muscle biopsy characteristic of dystrophy and demonstrating the absence of muscle membrane dystrophin in the muscle biopsy specimens.
3. Familial Reflex Myoclonus - a rare condition where very young puppies (3 to 6 weeks of age) develop intermittent muscle spasms and then progressive muscle stiffness. Littermates often affected.
4. Malignant hyperthermia - a rare, hereditary,life-threatening condition where excessive muscle contraction and increased body temperature can be triggered by general anesthesia with certain drugs or by stress and exercise (also called canine stress syndrome). Diagnosis is by rigorous laboratory testing of muscle biopsies or (more recently) through genetic testing.
The exercise-induced collapse syndrome we are describing can only be diagnosed by ruling out all of these other muscle disorders and by observing characteristic clinical features, history and laboratory test results in affected dogs.
Any dog with exercise intolerance should always have a complete veterinary evaluation to rule-out joint diseases, heart rhythm disturbances, respiratory problems,low blood sugar and other systemic disorders.
If the syndrome of Labrador Retriever Exercise-Induced Collapse is suspected,then further metabolic and muscle testing should be performed by a veterinarian in collaboration with a laboratory possessing expertise in metabolic disorders of canine muscle.
Investigators at the Western College of Veterinary Medicine (Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada), in collaboration with Dr. Shelton at the Comparative Neuromuscular Laboratory(University of California, San Diego), are involved in a research program to further investigate and characterize Exercise-Induced Collapse in Labrador Retrievers. We hope to determine the underlying defect in affected dogs and make strides towards accurate diagnosis, treatment and prevention."

A lot of other items cause collapse- yes the test helps but it is obvious from posters on this forum they want crucify anyone who breeds & affected or carrier- even if it is properly to a clear.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

I appreciate these types of responses because articles published create doubt: ....."...Taylor, who also went further afield in her search for affected dogs. She wrote lay articles about the collapse syndrome research for field trial publications and garnered help from dog owners throughout North America."

I'm not sure what doubt the articles created for you. The last portion that I quoted explains that some of the 200 dogs used for DNA comparison and pedigree analysis were from all over North America. While a good portion of the initial samples were from field trial dogs in one geographic location, their breeding represented a variety of field lines as well. I submitted sibling samples from an affected(observed collapse) and a not-affected (as far as we knew). This sort of sibling pair analysis is frequently used in DNA research.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Hi,
I have a 15 month old labradoodle who has had a couple of episodes that really look like EIC. From what I have read here and elsewhere her episodes are classic EIC. The problem is that she was tested as a puppy and tested clear or negative.

She appears well and healthy when checked by the vet. What else could this be?

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Just recently one of the young dogs I bred collapsed when she became very excited about going out to run with some older dogs on a crisp fall day. I've seen
EIC and this looked exactly like EIC, including the recovery. She both tested negative and was negative by parentage. She was scared but alert during the experience with no post seizure-like symptoms. The episode last only a few minutes and when the episode was over, she ran off with the other dogs. If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I would never have believed it.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Now the hysteria is all about HNPK , geez I think we are going to test this breed out of existence

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

THave to agree somewhat
Now the hysteria is all about HNPK , geez I think we are going to test this breed out of existence


That is such an uneducated, blind eyed statement. ^^^

These tests, whatever ones you use, are tools. Whoever uses them exclusively or not at all to make decisions is doing the breed a disservice. I don't care how long you've been breeding. Balance is key. Just like everything else in life.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

SuePuff
THave to agree somewhat
Now the hysteria is all about HNPK , geez I think we are going to test this breed out of existence


That is such an uneducated, blind eyed statement. ^^^

These tests, whatever ones you use, are tools. Whoever uses them exclusively or not at all to make decisions is doing the breed a disservice. I don't care how long you've been breeding. Balance is key. Just like everything else in life.


I am neither blind nor uneducated and that was a bit rude on your part to make an assumption about someone you don't know at all . It was actually said with tongue in cheek and
You misunderstand what I was saying, yes of course all these tests are great tools and it is great that they are available be used, however there are some out there who will completely dismiss a stud dog or brood bitch because they carry something, thus greatly diminishing the gene pool available to them and in fact as you say are doing a great disservice to the breed.

And for these breeders who do this as more tests become available the less dogs they will have to use so in fact they run the risk of doing the very thing they think they are trying to avoid and breed unhealthy dogs simply because their gene pool is very restricted

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Genetic tests are tools that enable breeders to make educated breeding decisions and possibly lower the risk of serious health issues (there are no guarantees). Breeding decisions are personal to each individual breeder depending on their particular goals, pedigrees and risk acceptance levels. No one is forcing anyone to do particular tests and in the same vein, it is no one else’s business if a particular breeder wishes to place importance on a particular issue that may not be as much of an issue to others. The only person who has a right to make those decisions is the person who is responsible for the particular dogs and their offspring. I think people feel pressured to do various clearances because others are doing them or are requiring them for breeding, but that is really a personal problem that must be resolved for oneself. In addition, no stud dog or brood bitch is owed breedings – they happen because the people responsible for the outcome agree it is the best mating possible. If one breeder considers HNPK to be a non-event, don’t test for it. But then don’t expect anyone to breed their HNPK carriers or affecteds to your dog; other people have just as much right to breed around the issue. It really does not matter if you personally feel it is inconsequential – it is not your call. The same goes for criticizing people for only breeding clears to clears. Outsiders have no idea what another’s breeding plans might be. For example, all but one of my dogs is Optigen clear. I could breed my clear bitch to a PRA carrier but I choose not to because I want to breed back to my own PRA carrier in the next generation and need a clear bitch to do so. There is no shortage of nice clear dogs so I do not have to risk losing type for a clearance. Others have different reasons.

Personally, I think we should be grateful we have these tests so we can make informed decisions – there are enough uncertainties and issues for which there are no tests that preventing the issues we know we can prevent increases the odds that we will produce functional, healthy, typical Labradors. I would be far more concerned about breeding for color or breeding on no clearances/prelims/known health issues than I would about people who are making an effort to breed non-affected dogs.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

I sold an affected puppy when the test just came out. My female was a carrier, the stud owner had just sent blood to U of Min, but was sure from the pedigree that the stud was clear. The male's EIC test came back as carrier. We tested all the pups, 1 was affected. He went to a previous pup family which I had a good relationship with. They had told me if I ever had a 'handicapped' pup, they would love to take it. Years later they gave me an update. Pup would go lie down under shade on walks, not be able to move legs for 20 minutes. They had water along, always gave pup cool water. Pup would eventually get up and continue on. They live in Chicago. This only happened in the summer but would happen almost every week or so. They only walked pup where shade was available. They'd patiently wait while pup 'rested' but pup could not get up if it wanted to. It wouldn't try or cry like in the EIC videos, just rest. It felt it coming on. This lovely family has loved and cared for this affected pup for many years now.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

Hello,
I know this is an old string, but I'm convinced my 2.5 year old has EIC but is clear genetically. After 10 minutes of ball fetch in 65 F sunny not humid weather, (granted this is warm for what we are used to in Anchorage) he has lost coordination in back legs, stumbled, fell over, etc. I have seen it twice and avoid by watching closely for symptoms, but twice friends have reported it happening on their watch. He recovers quickly (not heat stroke) and is aware and listens to commands during the episode (not epilepsy). He doesn't seem worried, just tired, panting, and happy because he is doing his favorite thing, fetch. Anyway, wanted to throw my two cents in.

Re: EIC Negative collapsing

NewtsMom
Hello,
I know this is an old string, but I'm convinced my 2.5 year old has EIC but is clear genetically. After 10 minutes of ball fetch in 65 F sunny not humid weather, (granted this is warm for what we are used to in Anchorage) he has lost coordination in back legs, stumbled, fell over, etc. I have seen it twice and avoid by watching closely for symptoms, but twice friends have reported it happening on their watch. He recovers quickly (not heat stroke) and is aware and listens to commands during the episode (not epilepsy). He doesn't seem worried, just tired, panting, and happy because he is doing his favorite thing, fetch. Anyway, wanted to throw my two cents in.


This thread is even older now!! - but I've just stumbled across this forum and there are a couple of things I would like to add into the conversation re collapsing EIC clears and carriers.

The first is a comment which can be found in a recent report by the International Veterinary Epilepsy Task force, in which they state that there is probably more than one form of EIC -

"Several studies suggest the existence of another and “DNM-1-independent” EIC condition in Labrador Retrievers, as some of the EIC-affected Labrador Retrievers are negative or heterozygous for the DNM1-gene mutation (approximately 15–30 % of EIC affected Labrador Retriever) [97], [98]. Hence, two distinct terms have gained acceptance for Labrador Retrievers: d-EIC (homozygous DNM1-gene mutation) and non-d-EIC (negative or heterozygous for the DNM1-gene mutation) [30], [97], [98]. Apart from a suspected diverse genetic background for the latter two EIC types, clinical differences between d-EIC and non-d-EIC have been observed. However, in general, and in contrast to seizures, EIC-episodes are induced by strenuous exercise. Contrary to epileptic seizures muscle tone is initially decreased in the affected limbs and consciousness remains preserved in more than 80 % of the Labrador Retriever with d-EIC. Another study also reported a wide-based pelvic limb stance, crouched posture and falling to the side during d-EIC"

And then I would also like to add that my EIC carrier lab suffers from collapsing episodes which have been diagnosed as paroxysmal dyskinesia. In the early years all episodes were triggered by excitement/over-exercise/startle - but now they happen without any obvious trigger. This is part of an article about PD which was recently submitted to the Health Committee of the UK Labrador Breed Council -

PAROXYSMAL DYSKINESIA IN THE RETRIEVER LABRADOR BREED
Paroxysmal Dyskinesia is an episodic neurological condition which is increasingly being diagnosed in Labradors. It is commonly mistaken for an epileptic seizure disorder by vets and owners alike, and so it is important to understand how Paroxysmal Dyskinesia differs to epileptic seizures or fits so that it can be quickly recognised.
Paroxysmal Dyskinesia is a movement disorder and is thought to be genetic in nature (the mode of inheritance has not as yet been established). During an episode of dyskinesia the dog is fully alert and will attempt to obey commands, although he/she may have no control of limbs. Dogs remain fully conscious throughout the episode, there is no loss of bladder/bowel control, and no excessive salivation. This makes the episodes very different to epileptic seizures in which salivation, urination and a loss of awareness are expected. Episodes can sometimes be brief and fairly mild with the dog showing just a little bit of unsteadiness or incoordination of the limbs (possibly described as a “funny turn”). However other Labradors have very severe episodes despite being fully aware which can cause full collapse and involve the entire body, which is very distressing to both dog and owner. During these extreme episodes very severe muscle spasms may occur (which may possibly be painful). While some mild episodes may be fairly short, the severe episodes can last well over an hour. Once the episode is over recovery is immediate – the dog will get to its feet and almost instantly revert back to normal. There is no “aura” before the episode or post-ictal signs following the episode, which again makes them distinct to epileptic seizures in which a prolonged period of abnormal behaviour may be seen following a fit. Dogs are completely normal in between episodes and show no problems at all until the next episode occurs. Frequency, severity, and length of episodes can vary dramatically between dogs but also within individuals. Importantly, Paroxysmal Dyskinesia is not thought to influence life expectancy, with affected dogs often living long, full lives.
Some Labradors can have just a few episodes and then appear to go into complete remission (having no further episodes – or just very occasional ones), but others experience these episodes for the remainder of their lives with a frequency of anything from one episode every year to several per week. Dogs mostly begin having episodes of Paroxysmal Dyskinesia while young, often experiencing their first episode by the age of two. In some Labradors the episodes can be triggered by excitement, a sudden burst of energy, or startle – but others appear to have episodes without any apparent trigger.
Labradors were first identified at the Animal Health Trust as having Paroxysmal Dyskinesia about fifteen years ago, and neurologists are now diagnosing more dogs as having the condition. However until recently there has been very little awareness of Labrador Dyskinesia among the general veterinary profession. It is possible that Labradors with Paroxysmal Dyskinesia may be misdiagnosed as having epilepsy. Labradors with dyskinesia do not usually respond to antiepileptic drugs and at this time no treatment has been found to help dogs with the condition. Therefore recognising the condition is important so that Labradors are not needlessly given long-term antiepileptic drugs that may have little effect in controlling the episodes.
Recently, neurology specialists Mark Lowrie and Laurent Garosi began a study into this movement disorder in Labradors with a view to correctly identifying the condition so that accurate diagnosis can be made, raising awareness of Paroxysmal Dyskinesia within the veterinary profession and the public, and hopefully finding a treatment which may help these dogs. The initial stage of the study has now been completed and an article written by Mark Lowrie was published in the July 2016 edition of The Veterinary Journal

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297891552
Natural_history_of_canine_paroxysmal_movement_disorders_in_Labrador_retrievers_and_Jack_Russell_terriers..

The research project is ongoing.

This is a link to a video which shows a Labrador having an episode of Paroxysmal Dyskinesia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdifQO2qevg