Would you, as a stud dog owner use your EIC carrier stud dog over an untested girl. This was a question put to me and my answer was a definite NO, but than I got to thinking, would others do so, bearing in mind the untested girl has a 50/50 chance of being a carrier. No flames, just interested in others thoughts.

Why does it matter what others would do? Ethics are personal and internal. They do not depend on the consensus of others. If you don't think it is the right choice for you, why care what others think? It is sort of like that typical "motherism" - if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump with them?

I have a collapsing bitch and it's not 'not a big deal'. I have two EIC clear and one EIC carrier stud dog. For my clear dogs, I don't ask about EIC. For my carrier dog, I do. He is not at stud to untested bitches. I know many breeders do not believe the test and many say it's up to the bitch owner to decide what puppies they produce, but as the owner of 1/2 of the pedigree, I will insure my boy will not contribute to any collapsing dogs. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I have produced an affected bitch that collapsed before we had the test and was returned to us because her family couldn't deal with it. It was heartbreaking to see the son and father part with their girl just because mom couldn't cope.Thankfully I found the perfect home for her where she is loved for herself and she takes care of 2 small dogs, one that is blind and the other has only 3 legs. She doesn't collapse any more as they know what to watch for.
I also now have a tested "affected" bitch that has NEVER collapsed, she is over 4 years old. That test also ruled out 3 dogs that I wanted to breed to and I had to revamp my search for her breedings,I had already found a clear dog that complemented her "just in case" she came back a carrier. I didn't expect her to be "affected". I wouldn't personally take the chance breeding to an untested dog if I knew my bitch was a carrier.And knowing what I do now I wouldn't have bred her mother to her father even though I got one super litter out of it.On the plus side my girl is an Optigen A :)!!! I'll just have to wait a couple of generations to breed to those boys, good thing they all have frozen semen.

The University no longer calls them "affected". The dogs with 2 copies of the gene are now called "at risk".

My bitch is affected because she has collapsed and then she was tested. The test came back with two EIC genes. I can understand the difference is terminology though and it might make sense.

Oh My, I am really sorry to hear you are having such a bad day. I am sorry if I have upset you in any way. I really do hope if this day doesn't get any better then tomorrow will be better than today.

Thanks. Didn't mean to upset you - I think you missed that I was supporting your position and felt that what others practice is THEIR problem!

Love what Just Me said. True. I would not use a female unless tested. Just like with Optigen. We have these test to breed away from problems. I also will not use an untested stud dog.

My current boy is EIC tested clear....... so I do not require the bitch be clear or even tested. My boy that was tested as a carrier was bred to tested clears only...........I've produced tested / collapsing pets and it is a SAD 100% preventable issue.

Here is a quote. "SASKATOON, SK– Researchers at the University of Saskatchewan's Western College of Veterinary Medicine and the University of Minnesota’s College of Veterinary Medicine have identified a genetic mutation in Labrador retriever dogs that is highly associated with exercise-induced collapse (EIC) syndrome."

And if you are a member of the LRC, you can find the 2010 Health Report in the 2010 Yearbook. The results for EIC - OFA shows 336 cases, 285 - normal, 10 - carrier, and 16 - at risk.

Did Univ of Sask change their term? The first quote does not say that. Did LRC change their term? The lower quote does say that.

It is not unusual for people to take it upon themselves to change science. The State of Texas does that every day.

I find it hard to believe that there were so few carriers in 2010. I have half of them :)

Back to the original question.

Yes. I would allow my carrier boy to breed to an untested bitch if we are talking about EIC.

PRA is a different story for me. I would not allow an untested bitch to breed to a carrier if I had one.

EIC is so blown out of proportion it's not even funny. Heatstroke is so much scarier and more dangerous than an EIC collapse. Allergies or skin conditions are much harder for pet owners to deal with than an EIC affected dog. The test is incomplete and all of the hoopla blows my mind.

In the end, who cares what someone else is comfortable with? What are you comfortable with? If you truly believe the test, then test your bitch before asking to breed to a carrier. That simple. If you don't believe in the test, but the stud owner won't breed to your bitch without one, get the test done. That simple. If she's a carrier, go with your 2nd pick stud.

I believe that we don't have the whole story with EIC. I will avoid if I can, but it would not absolutely keep me from using a stud dog. I would also let an untested bitch use a stud that is a carrier.

Here in Iceland breeders have not started to test for EIC. I am the only Labrador breeder here who have started to test for EIC. Yet breeders have been breeding Labradors here in Iceland for many many years with out any problems related to EIC. No collapsing dogs what so ever... I wonder why that is???
For me I think breeders are making a big deal of this, yes I will test my dogs just so that I know where I stand in my breeding if something comes up. But I have never heard of any problems related to EIC what so ever here in Iceland so I can understand why breeders are questioning this disease.

Hilda,
I'm curious. In Iceland, are Lab owners hunting or doing highly excitable stuff w/ their dogs? I produced one Affected that I know of ~5 yrs ago before the test (I suspect based on another incident that I have another out there as well from a different bitch/stud-- she too came up a carrier once tested but stud never has been done to my knowledge). When I contacted the stud owner about it, for his info, he was surprised to say the least and really questioned me-- defensive at first. But as I told him, hey, it takes 2 to tango and that's that. The sad thing is that the Affected girl is a retrieving machine and so it's limited her waterfowl hunting. She's collapsed at least 2x on opening day of pheasant season and at least 2x playing Chuckit at the park w/ the son. I too have a Carrier male who has been used a couple times at stud but we require the bitch be clear, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Why would I test if I have doubts? First of all two research colleges say EIC is caused by this. But talking to two other colleges they tell me the test is flawed. I have doubts that those two genes are the complete cause. Now why test- some people believe and want the results. So I test. If it eventually becomes proven correct, I have tested. If it is not correct then I have tried and tested someone's theory that did not work and we move on to find the real solution.

My paperwork is from the U of Minn from 2 weeks ago and it says Affected. So no they did not change their wording.
As far as EIC goes, the bitch that was returned to me was previously misdiagnosed by 2 different veterinarians as having seizures and heat stroke(at the SAME time!!! ) So yes it would seem that many dogs with EIC in the past and even the present are definitely misdiagnosed.

I have a book about the Master Nationals from back in the 80's and it describes a dog going down that clearly had EIC, however they chalked it up to heatstroke.It would seem even back then that it was overlooked as a disorder and thought to be something else entirely. The bitch that was returned just happened 2 years ago, so you can see that there isn't much education on this disorder in Labradors to the veterinarians. I tried to explain to the family/wife what the dog really had but she had no interest in wanting to learn to manage it,her new family did and she has never collapsed again.
As for breeding a Carrier to an untested, you could very well be surprised to find out that bitch and her puppies are Affected. Does that mean all of them will be syptomatic? Not necessarily, just like with PRA not all dogs go blind, we still don't want to produce PRA if we can avoid it.

It comes down to ethics, you either have them or you don't.Breeding a Carrier to an untested means that they apparently aren't learned or practiced by many of you and that you can't afford a measly $65 test.If you aren't going to be bound to follow what the test may show than don't bother testing at all, but be prepared to live with those actions.

Does that mean all of them will be syptomatic? Not necessarily, just like with PRA not all dogs go blind, we still don't want to produce PRA if we can avoid it.

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Just a quick note here, if a Labrador has PRA, if they live long enough (normal life), they WILL go blind,

And there you go "have doubts"... just to add here, I have worked in research labs at 2 universities in previous years. The competition between university researchers can be incredible, and yes, to the point of one bad mouthing the other "just because".
It's better to believe in those who peer reviewed the work than to listen to those who were on the outside looking in.

I am really tired of this topic, but I can't let misinformation pass without comment. Yes, you could say that the EIC test is flawed, as the mutation for which it tests does not tell us with 100% certainty that a dog will collapse. There are other factors, quite likely genetic ones, that protect some dogs from collapse. But these factors are not always inherited along with the EIC mutation (in the dynamic 1 gene). So even if your dog is genetically affected and has never collapsed, its progeny can if a carrier parent also passes on the mutation. If you sell any puppies to performance homes, particularly to water fowlers who want to allow their dog to swim, being affected WILL influence what the dog can safely do and will prevent the owners from fulfilling their plans for the dog. The test is reliable for determining whether or not a dog carries the dynamic 1 mutation, and 99% of the dogs that collapse in a manner consistent with EIC have two copies of the mutation. The one thing that the researchers have not done is to reproduce the condition by genetically engineering animals that have had the normal gene replaced by the mutant form. There is a dynamin 1 mutation in fruit flies that causes similar effects, but it isn't the same mutation as found in dogs, only in the homologous protein. This mutation is a temperature sensitive mutation, so it is possible that the canine version is somewhat temperature sensitive, too.

I am not familiar with the pedigrees of Icelandic labradors, but the reason EIC has been such an issue in the US is because several very popular sires happened to be carriers. We are fortunate that the test came along when it did so that we are able to safely use the progeny of these sires, who otherwise deserved their popularity, in our breeding programs.

Excuse my ignorance of geography but does it get hot in Iceland?

My understanding is that ambient temperature has not been shown to be a factor in EIC collapses. But I can't imagine that heat is not a factor. I do know my affected bitch collapsed on a very hot day.

Gregg, I'm sorry I meant that they may not go blind that you may necessarily notice.
My first bitch(over 20 years ago) went blind and it was noticable, with PRA by one year and we had another unrelated bitch about a decade later that was spayed so never had any furthur testing for PRA when the test came out that we didn't notice anything with her until she was acting "blonde" in her old age, she had an eye exam just to rule out anything there and as it turned out she had PRA, we just didn't find out until she was 12.

My point was, you cannot relate EIC and PRA. If a Lab has PRA, they WILL go blind. If a Lab has EIC they may or may not collapse.

My veterinary ophthalmologist has had 2 dogs who tested affected with prcd-PRA but did not go blind before they
died. There seems to be a range of
expression of prcd-PRA with some going blind very young
and some older. Even with the Optigen test for prcd-PRA individual differences occur.

How can anyone individual say that NO dogs have ever collapsed in Iceland of EIC? How would you know this with absolute certainty? There have been many unreported, misunderstood and swept under the rug collapses here.. hard to imagine. How many Labradors are there in Iceland? Perhaps it is such a small number?

?? in the OP statement they say there is a 50/50 chance of the non-tested bitch being a carrier. ?? how can this be.. when the bitch actually has the potential to be one of 3 things.. either Clear,Carrier or Affected herself. Not sure where this 50/50 thing came from.

Can someone explain that math to me???

I'm a newbie but thought I would throw my 2 cents in... the answer to the question for me is no ~ I would not risk it. I live with an EIC affected dog and despite others opinions it is a "big deal" for us. We own/bred her mom 7 yers ago. Way before the test was out or any one knew what EIC was. Mom is a MH and all age qualified and a hunting machine (carrier not affected.) Daughter had the potential to be even better. Her drive is off the wall. She is now 7 and although we do hunt her occassionally because she LOVES it we have to keep tight control. Despite this she "wobbled" twice last time. Temperature was mid 50s. When she actually collapses it is terrible and dangerous due to the rise in body temp. Hunting aside she can not play with my kids or other dogs to any degree. She has all this energy and not many places to put it. I know other dogs with EIC who are not affected to this degree but how do you ever know???? It is scary/sad to watch and certainly a big deal in our world. It is so easy to breed around that I would never risk putting another family/dog through it.

Ok... then you are saying the Bitch in question's Sire and Dam have both been tested to get this information.
??? would they not just test this girl?? Doesn't make sense to me.

Ok, thanks now I get it.

With a recessive genetic trait, two copies of the mutation are required for the dog to be considered "affected". This means that the general distribution is 25% clear, 25% affected and 50% carrier. Within the untested population, there is a 50% chance of any one individual being a carrier.

This would be true in Australia, where the testing outcomes have supported the 25, 50, 25 distribution. It does not appear that we have full penetration of the gene in the USA, since testing outcomes show a 60% clear, 30% carrier and 10% affected distribution in the overall testing so far. While the primary MATH supports the 50% chance for any dog to be a carrier, the population statistics would mean that the average bitch in this country has a 60% chance of being clear. If you are not confused enough, I can explain it in a more complicated way

There are no guarantees in life. But to sell a pup to a family and only be able to say that it might not collapse just doesn't sound right when you could say that it won't.

This is a very good reason to test. Good business. pure and simple.

"Allergies or skin conditions are much harder for pet owners to deal with than an EIC affected dog."

Tell that to the person who came up to me out of the blue Sunday at a dog event asking what I knew about EIC because she saw I had Labradors. She has a dog who collapses just running and playing in their back yard. Her vet recommended they test the dog and it is affected. They can't even throw a tennis ball for the dog. I believe she said the dog is 3 or 4 years old. Hard to keep a young, active dog from being active for it's entire life and I wouldn't want to be the breeder who got that call which is why I now test any dogs I plan to breed. I have no problem breeding to a carrier with a clear bitch but my intact male is a carrier so I would not breed him to an untested bitch.

Kate... read the whole post. I explained applied population penetration in the second paragraph

You are confusing the proportion of clears, affected, and carriers in crosses between carriers with the proportion in the general population. As I recall, about 40% of the dogs are carriers. Sorry, going training, so no more time to explain this better right now. I'll do so later if anyone expresses interest.

I expressed what I wanted to say badly. We can make no assumptions about how EIC is distributed in the general population. We do not have enough data to support any assumption about penetrance in the population.

There are no 100% guarantees of anything. We just play the odds. The odds of a carrier collapsing are much more likely to do with something else. The odds of an affected collapsing compared to the odds of a carrier collapsing....no brainer as to what to do....do not produce affecteds.

I am not confused, though this can be a confusing subject. In any individual gene pair, there is a possibility of NN, NE, EN and EE. This is a MATHEMATICAL chance for 50% to have one gene for E - or be "carriers". However, this is not true when applying population statistics. In the USA Labrador population, the observed distribution appears to be 60% clear (NN) 30% carrier (NE or EN) and 10% affected (EE). So, while it would be mathematically accurate to say that an untested dog has a 50/50 chance of being a carrier, it is not STATISTICALLY true when applied to the US Lab population. Any untested dog from an unknown background would STATISTICALLY have a 60% chance of being clear in this country.

There is a difference between simple math and applied statistics of populations. As I pointed out in the first post, in Australia the gene appears to have full penetration with their current tested statistics showing 25% clear, 50% carrier, 25% affected. Different populations will have different probabilities.