Average boy - AKC champion, maybe some nice specialty placements and wins., all clearances, etc.. How many times is the average boy used in the course of his lifetime? I'm not talking about Travis/Gordy/Arnold type numbers, just the average breeder's nice boy. Is it maybe 10 times, 20 times, or ?

Having a Ch and even a GRCH with all clearances but if he is an Optigen B or an EIC Carrier it won't be up to 10 times in a year. Most people don't want to spend money on testing pups and it gives you more bragging rights for your litter. You also have many bitches that are B's. People don't often breed to the Dogs accomplishments and clearancs and pedigree like they should. They take the cheap way out.

My boy was not a finished Champion, but titles in field and obedience. He was an Optigen B and used about 20 times in his career. Excellant pedigree. Frozen reserve for me. Hope that helps. Will tell you alot are used very little. So many nice boys out there. Well, until you start looking.

Sometimes none. If I don't have a bitch to breed to one of my boys, then I don't keep him. Sometimes you get lucky, you keep a boy for yourself and then he turns out nice, and has all his clearances, and other people use him too.

Many times that depends on the clearances and color of the dog, not just the pedigree. Thats a tough question to answer.

The sad part is people are breeding to clearances and not the correct dog for their bitch. I have used "carriers" and will continue if its the right dog for my girl. We are supposed to improve what we have. If you cut out the Optigen B or EIC carrier, and only breed to clears, what's that saying about you? Now, if the clear dog is the best dog for your bitch so be it. I have a boy that is carrier in PRA and he has been used quite often actually. I also have a boy that is clear and he too has been used a lot.

My stud has been used 39 times - has had 3 misses (all with chilled) and 2 singleton births. He's 5 years old. He has all clearances.
I wouldn't hesitate to breed to Optigen B or an EIC carrier if my female was clear. I look for type and then see what I'm into and who needs to breed to whom. In fact in my present litter - the female is an EIC carrier.

I don't plan on anybody using him if I keep a boy. I keep him for myself and if someone else uses him then great. But, I am not a famous kennel either and hardly ever have a boy around.

This is a great question though. I have friends with outstanding males that hardly ever get used and others with what I would consider more mediocre boys who seem to be used fairly often.

I guess a lot of things come into play with stud selection. But unless you are a well known kennel, I would not keep a boy expecting a bunch of stud fees, even if he is fairly successful in the ring.

You could think of a few stud dogs who meet your description and go to the OFA site and see how many offspring have been OFA'd. This would only work for older dogs probably as younger dogs' offspring would not have been OFA'd yet. But also, many litters don't have any pups OFA'd but you would still get an idea.

Well to give you some examples:
Our 1st boy was a finished champion, all clearances, never used. Our next boy, also a finished champion, all clearances, used maybe 5 times (three times by us). Our last boy, not finished, all clearances, used somewhere between 25 to 30 times.
I know many, many nice boys that are/were never used, too many choices out there.

my boy has a BISS, is an AM GCh, has sired Potomac and National Specialty winners and is rarely used. He is an EIC Carrier and I lost 15 nice breedings due to that ... editorial comment: everyone pointed fingers at the stud dog, but it's ok to be an EIC carrier if you are a bitch apparently ...

I think you ask a good question, here is a good answer. 5. That is probably average considering you asked how many times a stud is used in his lifetime.

Really has to do with PR of the owner also. I always choose a boy who's owner is easy to deal with. Why have a hassle on shipping etc? Smooth delivery gets the buck. As you say too many good matches out there.

As for keeping a boy. Cheaper to use another's. Upkeep and show costs of a male can go through the roof. When I retire I will have a boy. Love them but cannot personally afford one to keep for myself.

Actually, if the girls were carriers, it's no wonder they passed your boy up. No one wants to purposely produce affecteds... It's also possible that the bitch owners were very small kennels and didn't want to limit their breeding pool by possibly producing a carrier by taking their clear girl to your carrier boy. Carrier isn't the end of the world, however, it is limiting.

As for pointing fingers, grow up. We all know it takes two to tango. Blaming just the stud dog or just the bitch for something that takes two dogs to produce is moronic.

Can anybody say really crazy. That is what someone is who breeds to clearances. I would breed the best stud dog for my female and toward the standard. Who cares BISS, I agree you can buy Championships that does not mean the dog deserves it. I test my female and can go to any stud dog that suits, if she is clear. Optigen B and EIC Carriers are just something to work around with a great dog and pedigree he carries. I have never bred just to be able to say the pups are clear. But to answer your question most are used very little.

Have several Ch, specialty winning boys that have been used 30+ times producing Ch, Can Ch, JH, and specialty winners. Young boy who is Ch, specialty winner producing beautifully and being used frequently until the EIC test comes along. Didn't test for a while then when I did he came back a carrier. Stud inquiries now are just about nil. You can say you would take your clear girls to a carrier but the phone ain't ringing for any of us from what I hear. When it comes to light that this test is faulty it will be too late for some nice studs that could have made a contribution. We are freezing semen from him so we can use him in the future. Just like when the first optigen test came out.

I am going to pick the best dog for my bitch based on MY criteria, which is no one’s business but my own since I will be the one living with the results of any breeding. I happen to have an EIC carrier bitch – her dam was clear and all of the puppies tested carriers – would I have done that breeding had there been a test at the time? Heck yes – I loved what I got and would not change a thing. However, my current bitch is not clear so my options are limited – I will not intentionally risk breeding an affected dog. When I bred her, there were a few stud dogs that I considered using whose clearances were not readily apparent, but when I contacted the owners they stated they had no intention of testing their boys (no clearance is the same as tested non-clear in my book). My personal experience has been that if the dog is tested clear (and this applies to any clearance), it will be listed. All of my bitch’s clearances (and she has the same clearances as my boys) are listed and easy to find, and I expect the same of a stud dog I use. When searching for a stud dog, I generally make a list of dogs I am interested in using and then make a point of actually seeing them in person prior to making a final decision. Once I narrow it down, I research clearances and pedigrees. I will inquire with owners but if I have to go through a hassle to get answers, I am done with the stud owner – not the type of person I am interested in dealing with. I don’t know anyone who breeds TO clearances, but most people I know take them into consideration when making a decision – for me it is the responsible thing to do. There is not one stud dog I can think of that is so wonderful that I would breed to him without considering health and compatibility with my bitch. I think there are people out there with clear bitches who are avoiding EIC carriers in the near term because it is easier to have clear offspring to carry on with than to rely on stud owners to test right now. At some point, the tide may turn. My current bitch produced some clears (none were tested prior to going to new homes so it did not impact what I kept) so now I have more options going forward. Regardless, none of my decisions will ever take into consideration what stud dog owners think I should do (nor do I expect them to agree to breed to every bitch that comes along)!

Just bred an EIC-tested affected bitch (she's 6 years old, so before the test was used frequently, I've never seen her collapse) to a clear dog. I'm hoping there isn't a gorgeous boy in there - I'll keep a boy if he's too good to pass up, but I'd really prefer to only keep a girl or two, all things being equal.

So you can't answer the question then since you haven't had males.

I have a chocolate male who has several working titles in addition to a show title; because of this I have had a lot of stud requests over the years, primarily from working homes. He is a PRA carrier but that never seemed to be an issue for people. It is interesting because he has never been advertised nor has he ever been available at stud - I am not interested in managing a stud dog. I am sure if he were black I would not have received the same number of inquiries, if any at all - I think it is more common for people to breed for what sells rather than specifically for clearances.

Sorry, that was meant for "Breeding Decisions".

Oh, okay - gee, maybe we should all pick a number (like Breeder125) to be more unique!

Truly sorry but if you look you can see our messages were 1 minute apart. It just wasn't meant for you. Sorry you are upset about it.

I keep mostly boys so am not sure why you are referring to me, either. As I said, my girl has the same clearances as my boys, which would be an odd comment from someone who had no boys. I really could care less how much the average stud is used - I don't keep boys because I am hoping for stud fees and I would hope that others are not as well. I keep the best in my litters and/or what I am looking for. Whether or not they will suit others' needs is irrelevant to my decisions.

Breeding decisions are very personal so it is pretty pointless to speculate about the reasons why a dog is or isn't used. Do what is right for your own breeding program and don't worry about everyone else.

"I think it is more common for people to breed for what sells rather than specifically for clearances."
In my area, chocolate labs are in demand. Chocolate litters always sell; not as much the yellow and forget black. So, unless you have a chocolate stud or a stud that carries chocolate, your boy is likely to be passed over, no matter how nice he is. It's just the way it is.

You with the $$$ signs. What a stupid remark. If someone is producing well bred nice dogs, why should they saddle themselves with something they may have trouble placing? The economy is impacting everyone. Let's just get through it. And if the quality of the chocolates keeps improving, hallelujah!

@ $$$$ Not saying that at all. The economy being what it is, breeders in my area who have chocolates and blacks are focusing their efforts on producing good quality chocolates because they are much less likely to find themselves with puppies that no one wants to purchase. And this is after they have kept or placed their pick puppies with show homes. Pet people tend to want chocolate puppies.
Let's be honest here. Money does enter into the equation, like it or not. We all have to pay our bills.

For some of us, money does not enter into the equation... our day jobs support our dog hobby. If we happen to get puppies.. great, it helps offset the expense and the same goes for a stud fee, but some of us NEVER look at our dogs as a way to pay our bills.

To Ditto: Sorry, but if you are depending on income from breeding to pay your bills then I would have to question if you are in this HOBBY for the wrong reason. Ideally you should have a list of people waiting for your puppies before you breed a bitch, or don't breed her this time. We should breed to IMPROVE the breed not to make money. If you are doing it right then you are only having a few litters a year and breeding quality dogs that find good homes. If you need the income then perhaps you should get a job.

Please reread my posts. I never said I was breeding puppies. I am not. I was attempting to contribute to the OP about how often a stud dog is used by sharing what I see in my area. No need to bite my head off!
Sheesh!

JMO...smart thing to do! You probably won't be sorry.

Does it seem to anyone else that there are soooo many carriers of EIC and just like the original PRA test there should have been a lot more dogs showing they were/are affected from all the "unknown carrier to carrier, or carrier to affected" breedings? Personally, I have 3 carrier bitches and used the EIC test before 2 were bred; one is not old enough. I finally got an EIC clear bitch pup to run on and I am excited because there were a lot of carrier boys I really wanted to use on those 2 carrier girls of mine, but didn't dare! If this test is flawed(which I think it is missing a component)then will we all be sad when we can no longer use a gorgeous stud that has passed on, or been neutered. Incidentally, I have been breeding long enough to have heard whether any of my puppies my bitches have produced(the ones BEFORE my 3 carriers came along/grandmothers)were collapsing and I've never heard anything remotely suggesting a dog has collapsed, or had heatstroke symptoms. I have a really hard time believing there are so many carriers. Hard to say this , but maybe good old fashioned "test breedings" are the only way to prove this genetic test worthy and having said that, each and every dog given the "carrier, or affected" title would have to be bred to a carrier, or affected because there are so many variables to this condition. This is the only sure way to know if this test is trustworthy and it would take many many years of controlled studies. Has this been done? It's not like PRA where it is a no kidding, no question blindness for a very specific reason and easily determined. I think a lot of questions remain with this EIC condition and test.

I RESENT YOUR POST!
Most of us? I think not!!!! Excuse me but many of us are ethical and caring and the dogs have the best of everything. They are healthy and happy and loved. You're just blowing smoke........