When do you give up showing a dog? I've done performance and am use to getting titles after a few shows. I started conformation 2 years ago, I have a 2 1/2 yo bitch who has taken RWB twice, once with a handler and once with me handling. She's been to 2 specialties, did not even win her class at either of them. She's been out 14 times total, 6 of the times with a good handler which has finished many Labradors. She took her class every time when out with a handler but has never taken WB, not one point yet. Advice? My mentor is her breeder who of course is encouraging to keep at it. I do enjoy showing, but think I don't have a chance in my area due to my inexperience with handling and so many handlers in the ring. Should I send her out with a handler again or give up? What would you do?

I'm sure you will get a bunch of answers here that might discourage your or might even encourage you to continue. It is VERY difficult to compete in conformation and win. Those who win consistently have been breeding in showing for generations and have developed the kind of dog that is able to win in the ring.

When you only have one show dog, the numbers just don't work in your favor, sad to say. Rarely you get "lucky" and get a dog that is a winner, but more often, you have to pay your dues and learn to accept class wins, Reserves and just placing at specialties.

If you enjoy the comraderie of the sport, use this dog to hone your skills as a handler and make friends. Try other events; field work, ob, agility where your dog can succeed on skill and not just looks.

I have been in your position, had my first show bitch (now almost 5). She has had some success in the ring and half the points have come with handlers and half with me on the lead. She is a lovely girl, BUT it has taken a long time.

I think it cost me about $8-10000 to finish a very nice bitch 12 years ago. You do the math....that did include entries and hotels and some handling fees.
Dog show are not for the faint of heart, you have to tough it out. Also my bitch did ok as a under 4 yr old but when she was 4 she was REALLY ready to show. Your bitch may need to bloom......

It is almost not fun to show now. So many handlers. The sport of it is gone, they have the upper hand. Lots of dogs finish that way. They may not have with owner on lead. We all have had dogs that received so many reserves and the professional took the pt. Just is what is happening right now. So if you are showing to enjoy your dog and the sport, keep going. JMHO

For me, the point of dog shows is to get an independent evaluation of the DOG and it really should not matter who is handling the dog - a nice dog is nice no matter who is at the end of the leash. I do enjoy going and watching the dogs, but I really do not enjoy handling in conformation and I am not good at (and have been told this numerous times), so I often will get friends or a handler to take my dogs in the ring for me. I do show them myself from time to time and it has not really made a huge difference. I have friends who present their own dogs very well and are quite successful despite the fact that they are not pros.

I guess whether one continues depends on what ones goals are. I am a breeder and want to prove my dogs. I want to know what I have when I am breeding and I do not want kennel blindness to unduly influence that. I also work my dogs in upper level field work and obedience. When I take them to a hunt test or to an obedience trial, my expectation is that they will be evaluated against the set standard and if they meet that then they will qualify. When they are shown in conformation, my expectation is that they will be evaluated against the breed standard and against the other dogs present. It is easier to get a good view if the dog is presented well - if it is allowed to stand underneath itself, is constantly sitting, etc, it is not easy to evaluate. When I see my dogs in pressure situations or stacked up against the best that other breeders have brought, it gives me an idea of their overall quality and what I need to improve. That is why I enter shows and trials.

If the purpose of owning this dog is to go out and have fun with it, it might be good to try other venues for a while. It may be the dog is slow to mature - the dogs that I have brought out have finished fairly quickly but I wait until they have come into themselves before I really start showing them. My dogs are slow to mature and by the time they do they usually have several performance titles. Get the honest opinion of other breeder friends on this dog - what are its strengths and weaknesses and is it competitive? Every dog has something to offer, but not every dog is going to be successful in every venue.

I have several champions, more females than males. I have never finished a bitch any younger than 2 1/2, some were 3. I think it is hard to even put points on a bitch, if you are showing at big specialties.

I think one of the important things to try to do is - show your bitch when she is in fabulous condition. That happens only a couple of times a year and only lasts for a 6-8 week period, that being, for me, when she is in season and the weeks surrounding the season.

Show her to judges that like her type. Have a list of those judges, have someone who knows that sort of thing help you pick out those judges. They may go for movement, or pretty faces, etc, - put the odds in your favor.

Show her in a class that she can take, that is appropriate, so that at least she gets a second look for winners. And, if you need to, have a handler that can do something under that judge. Be selective.

I would continue until you have shown her at her best, with the best judges for her and the best handler (that could be yourself) and if in another 6 - 12 months you have done nothing - then breed her and see if that will improve her - sometimes it does.

I hardly start showing my dogs until they are 3 years old. Your breeder will know when her lines mature and when they peak. Your bitch may just be entering her prime. 14 shows is not many. You do not say what classes your girl has been winning. Winning small puppy classes or American bred is not as telling as winning open, or even the 12-18 class, which often produces points. This is a popular, competitive breed; remember that every dog in the ring is there because its owner thinks it has merit. You don't see many that are not decent representatives of the breed. Most dogs take many more than 14 shows to finish, especially at that young age. The overall quality in my area of the country is much higher than it was when I moved here over 25 years ago. Back then I finished several dogs that were not as good as the dogs I've not been able to finish more recently. And although the point schedule is dropping, it is still too high for the current level of entries. Here we have one point shows and three point shows (with lots of high quality dogs, all of whom want that elusive major) , almost no 2, 4 or 5 point shows. The many specialties in some areas of the country keep the point schedule very high. So based on your girl's age, the number of times you have shown her, and your record of class wins and several reserves, I think it might be premature to give up entirely, although you might want to let her mature.

Handlers are not always the answer. I have a MH boy that I have tried harder than usual to finish because I have always wanted to have a Ch MH. We are currently ready for our CDX and still running in Masters. If you are also involved in performance you may have to decide whether to keep the dog in shape for performance or conformation. I sacrificed a whole winter to have him professionally shown by a top handler at shows that drew major entries. I was told by the handler that I wanted to use that I had to put 15 pounds on him if I wanted to get majors on him. The results were some blue ribbons in open classes, but zero points. I could not jump him at 24 inches or expect him to do a triple, followed by a double blind, at the weight the professional handlers required. I have shown him at smaller shows myself and have accumulated a number of points, interestingly enough, about half of them when he was in working condition. But around here, the judges that reward dogs in good shape don't pull majors because most of the dogs are 5-15 pound overweight. We did just get a point several weeks ago, the day after he ran some Masters type series in training, so there are some judges who know what working condition is. I've given up on the handlers and the extra 15 pounds. He will stay in working condition, go for his CDX and maybe his UD, and keep running in Masters. The championship may elude us, but I would not trade him for many specialty winners I've seen - well, maybe for the lovely Windy, who just got her JH with a few extra pounds on her.

Maybe you are lucky to have a dog that is competitive in working condition, and of course if you confine your activities to Rally and lower level field and obedience titles- activities that don't require jumping, maybe you can continue to do that while your girl is in show condition. It wasn't always this way. I had several dogs finish championships while they were working in the field and/or obedience, although admittedly not at the MH level. Back in 1985, before the obedience jump heights were lowered, I got a CDX on a dog that was in what was considered show condition back then, so things have changed. She jumped 32 inches. Can you imagine our specialty winners jumping that height today?

Sorry if I've somewhat hijacked your thread, but you did mention performance events.

When I started the best I could do was reserve. Took me several years to even get a point. I used a professional to get points but never gave up trying myself. The quality of my dogs were not that good back then. I kept doing it because it was challenging and I enjoyed the people around me. Because of all that I learned how to show a dog.

Now (20+ years later) my dogs are much nicer, I have won BOB at specialties, and I am a judge. I don't really care if I win because I still enjoy the dogs and people. If you get really frustrated losing then maybe it is time to give it up. If you love the dogs and being at the events with the people and other dogs then stay after it.

Hope that helps.

"If you get really frustrated losing then maybe it is time to give it up. "

If you give up showing and still breed you get finger pointed by other breeders that you did not get a CH on the dog before you bred it. Even though you have done every test under the sun!

Thanks Peggy! I consider that a huge compliment - even if you do think she's a few pounds overweight

Well some of us are gluttons for punishment. I am still trying with my 8 1/2 year old boy. He has 9 points out of Bred by. I gave up and tried 3 handlers and not a point 1. I am going to 1 more 4 days show weekend and then giving up. He didn't mature till he was 4 + and still looks good. But it is hard to beat those young beautiful boys. I wanted a Dog with a title on both ends but I guess I have to settle with a UKC Ch group winner with a JH. Just not the same but still makes me proud. Your girl may not be mature enough yet, give her a little more time and check with your breeder/Mentor. Good luck!

Ahh. Just think that some of those young boys winning in the show ring would not know what to do with a duck! lol Congrats on your special boy's titles on the other end.

If her breeder wants her shown can she help you out with more experienced handling? It would save you handler fees and the breeder would be able to show the bitch she bred. If her name is on your girl co-owned, she could be entered in the BBE classes.

Also, some girls don't fully mature until over age 3 or 4. Good Luck.

Peggy, you're very critical. You wrote a book of a reply and then accuse a bitch, Windy who is a British and American CH of being a few #'s overweight when she finished her JH.

I happen to have my own opinions of your dogs but don't dare mention them.

Liz may laugh, I think it was rude comment and you did hijack this breeder's thread as you mentioned.

I took Peggy's words as an even greater show of Windy's appeal, and I think Liz did, tool. I didn't find Peggy rude. I have told people that Windy is the kind of Lab that we can all agree is gorgeous! I love seeing her. Kudos to Liz and Windy!

Donna,I don't know where you're getting your information but that never happens to me or anyone else I know. If it's a large producing kennel that does lots of breeding and very little showing, then maybe that's what you're talking about?

Also keep in mind it's who you know not how nice your dog is at least 98% of the time.
I don't want to wait 20 years to have a champion. I'd get out before then but that's me.
Maybe someone will give me a dog so I can fly without wings.
Don't bet on it!

Are you serious? Wow, I guess I should have stopped showing years ago. I am still a nobody but I am a good handler and I know a good dog. I win fairly often and big wins, not just a point here and there. I have won every major specialty award (except BOSS), including multiple BISS and National/Potomac wins. I have won breed and group placements at all-breeds. I do not hob-knob with the judges or other breeders. I do my own thing.

I've been watching this thread and have to laugh at those who feel that showing is rigged. Laughing at the insinuation that the only way to win is with a handler. Are you guys serious?

I'll share my winning formula with you. 1)Get a good dog. Not just a nice dog or an average dog, but the best you can. Make sure the breeder has a winning record for producing consistent winners. A breeder who doesn't show or hasn't finished champions, will rarely be able to know what it takes to make a show dog. 2)Know you have a good dog. Educate yourself. Learn what it takes to win. Look at the winners and look at what you got. Look at head. Look at structure. Look at bone and coat. Look at condition. The whole point of showing is to be able to compare dogs. 3)Learn how to handle your dog. If you are showing your own dog, this is crucial. The old saying that a good handler can make an average dog look fabulous and a bad handler can make a fabulous dog look horrible. 4)Research your judges. Go to infodog or AKC and see what dogs the judges you have coming up put up. Do they consistently put up handlers. Do they have a color preference or a class preference?

I do get tired of hearing people complain that they lose because of political reason. The handlers always win. The breeder/judges only win. Come on, if it was that rigged only pros would show. Anyone can do well if they know what they're doing, are up to par with their handling skills as the pros and have a good dog. If your handling sucks, then yes, by all means hire a professional. Many people hire handlers because they suck or they are just unable to get to the shows. It is a numbers game. The more you show, the more chance you have of winning. I have nothing against handlers. I handle just as well as them and beat them regularly.

Not all dogs are ready to show at a young age. I've had puppies win majors/finish at specialties and I've had dogs as old as 7 years old finish. I never give up if the dog is worthy and has done a fair amount of winning. With bitches, sometimes breeding them before they finish is a good idea. I've seen bitches just bloom after a litter or two. Granted she has a good topline and having pups won't pull it down, I would actually suggest you breed her now, while she's young, and then take her back after when she comes back in coat.

And these are just my suggestions on what has worked for me over the years.

Best of luck to you and your girl.

I will just reply that I meant my comment on Windy as Liz took it. I called Windy lovely, and I meant it. I'm sorry you considered my remark, intended to be humorous, rude. If you find my comments too long or off topic, feel free to ignore them. A number of people have been kind enough to send me private messages of appreciation about my "books".
I do feel that it is difficult to compete in performance events, which the OP says she does, while keeping the weight on that seems to be required by professional handlers, or at least by the ones I dealt with, who are very successful at showing Labs, so I assume their advice is good.

You are new, have one dog and are upset because it's not winning enough. If you only wanted a winning dog and a quick champion, LABRADORS are not for you. Get a different breed with a low point count that is flashier and wins quicker. There are plenty of those breeds.

If you love labs and love working with your dogs whether in performance or conformation, you NEVER throw in the towel. You just keep working towards your goal and enjoy what life gives you when you get some kind of reward.

I bought a bitch about 8 years ago. She got class placements but no points, no reserves. She had rally titles and her WC. And produced a few nice litters.

Those pups have their UKC champion and grand champion titles. Some have UKC hunting titles. Some of AKC performance titles. My keepers out of the litters have gotten Reserves. Hey, look at that, I improved my dogs. No points though.

Next time I buy a dog, I know more about what I want. Hopefully THEN I see some bigger wins.

If your dog is NICE and it's just a matter of finding the right judge on the right day to like your dog, keep at it. But you DO have to go to alot of shows. 1 specialty and a handful of all breeds and then bitching is like complaining you didn't win the lottery when you didn't buy a ticket.

I understand the instant gratification of working with a nice dog in Obedience and getting those titles and placement ribbons because you know you have trained your dog well and you work well as a team. But conformation is a different animal. You can do both or pick what suits you best. Yes, SOME folks get lucky and their first or second dog gets to be a Champion. And then there are the rest of us that are happy with class placements and Reserves until we improve what we have at home. I don't do handlers, this is a sport for me. I am not looking to buy a champion when I am fully capable of showing my own dogs.

Why be so concerned about having a CH. in front of your dogs name? When you've been involved in the breed a while that shouldn't matter because you will know a champion when you see one, with or without a title. Put your dog out there on Jill's spotlight page. If you're considering breeding her, long time Lab folks know a nice dog when they see one. My point is you do not need to spend thousands of dollars trying to earn a CH. if she truly is one. I, personally, could care less about a title. I learned a long time ago what dog shows are all about and will make my own decisions as to whether I feel a dog is deserving, not someone else's.

I started out knowing nothing about 28 years ago. I now have had multiple champions(some BISS)and hunting titles on almost all of my dogs without ever using handlers or trainers. You can do it yourself IF you develope an "EYE" for a typey dog, and are able to chose the best quality keeper from your litters. If you're out there long enough and consistently bring nice dogs to the Specialties then you earn a reputation. Never bring a mediocre dog to the party. You have to learn what to keep and what to let go. My third Labrador was a Champion with her JH and WCX. It took about 6 years from when I started in Labs to get her titles. It can take years, but most of all it takes an "eye" for quality and a "look".

No, not a large kennel. New to the sport of conformation. Mainly was participating in obedience before I owned breeding bitches. Only have a few breeding bitches who is not yet finished. One has had a couple of litters. She has obedience titles but a handful of show breeders say that they should not even have a litter until they have a conformation title. One breeder even has this in her contract when she sells a show potential pup.

I take so much from the litter money to use for showing. When that runs out which does not take long, my focus changes.

Chances are very high that your bitch won't get her CH. But that doesn't mean you should stop showing! Use her as a way to gain experience and knowledge and visibility. Show her yourself. Go to handling classes. Go to specialties and show her. Sit ringside when you are not showing and study pedigrees - what do you like? What do you like that is also winning? Figure out why. Pick breeders' brains about specific parts. One show ask a bunch of different breeders about rears. Another ask about shoulders. Another movement. And so on. Develop your eye for a dog. Learn how to show your dog to best accentuate the positive and reduce the negative. Enter her in classes with smaller entries like AOH so you are more likely to win the class and also get to show in winners. More experience. Help your newfound breeder friends show their extra dog in winners or for reserve. Get involved with a specialty and/or all breed club. Help run shows. Make contacts. Enjoy the social experiences (Lab people DO know how to PARTY!) When the time comes and you are ready for your next show bitch, you will know exactly what you want and who from, and they will be happy to have you as a show owner. In Labradors, most of us do not do a lot of winning. If winners were randomly picked in NY state you would have to average 16 shows to get each major.

This can be a lot of fun if you want to have fun!

She's only 2 1/2. She might still be growing. A litter might help her mature more or she might without a litter.

I think any bitch if handled well and has nice conformation & movement could finish her Championship. Alot depends on where you show her.

I've noticed Labs shown in the Mid-West All Breed Shows who finish and aren't half as nice as the Labs on the East or West Coasts. Trying other areas to show her might be a thought. There's a bitch in the Mid-West I still can't believe was finished by her owner. She's fair looking, nothing special about her and she's very small, beneath the standard in height and weight to my eye. She kept winning majors as in the Mid-West you don't need as many dogs in those zones.

So try to show her more maybe in a different area, enjoy yourself and you just might accomplish what you set out to do originally.

In New England there are a ton of handlers and breeder/ judges showing in the ring. There are also an incredible amount of beautiful, top quality dogs and bitches. The entries are huge for the classes. Even at the All-breed shows, looking for a 1 or 2 point show can be difficult depending upon how far you are willing to travel... So it makes it even more difficult to finish a nice dog or bitch.. I think the majority of the time, they must be outstanding to win... I have a boy who wins his class almost every time at Potomac, and the Specialties under foreign judges.... Some wins have been with a handler, some with me.. He has many RWD under all- rounders,, but he is not what is winning in the ring these days under breeder judges... I will never finish him.. He does not have 1 point... That's pretty odd since he is so competitive at the largest Labrador show in the world.. But I will continue to show him. He is what I like, a classic, 'no nonsense kind of Lab' as he has been described in his critiques... Showing is not all about the CH. When you think of how many Labradors are entered in the shows and how many points are awarded every year, it is mind boggling how any Labrador wins.... after quite a few years in the ring,I am still honored by placements at nice Specialties... I do have a Champion that I did not breed.. He was handled and pointed by me and handlers, but my others mostly have beautiful rosettes and ribbons that I cherish. I don't think anyone can tell you to show or not to show... You have to decide if the sport and sacrifices are for you and your girl or not... BTW I think starting with a bitch is so far harder than a dog since their entries are so much larger.. and sometimes they don't look their best until after they whelp their first litter.
But it is an expensive sport that I think you and your girl have to enjoy doing. If you think you will just throw alot of money a handler's way and she will finish, it's a bad investment. There's so much more to breed ring than what meets the eye..Do it for fun, experience, joy for your placements that all the other entrants in the class did not get, and for the company of fellow breeders and exhibitors.... Yes it does seem like the same people win time and time again.. And yes some days I think man what a fabulous Labrador at the end of the leash, while others I shake my head and think WTH? But if all exhibitors were honest they would say the same thing...I don't know one exhibitor who agrees with the Winners at each and every show. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
All the experience in the world won't allow you to finish a less than top quality bitch... And even a novice can't stop a top quality bitch from winning with a judge who knows a true Labrador.

My own experience with this is that I expect the puppy I saw at 7 weeks to end up to be almost the same as an adult when grown. There are many differences in rates of growth based on lines with some looking better in the junior classes then they do as mature adults, and the other way around as well. It all depends on the lines. The dog you have, since you bought it, you may not know how that dog will mature and what age to expect it to be at it's best for showing. With our line the dogs generally are not shown as puppies because they go through awful stages of growth. Then as juniors they are more competitive. They really bloom as adults with the males not really being fully mature until 3 or 4 years old. If I took them out at 2 years I would be wasting my money and thinking they are not going to be good enough. You have to have the experience and the eye to be able to tell if the dog has the quality it takes first and foremost, then be able to look at the dog in your yard and see when they are ready to win. If I am showing my dog and they don't even get a reserve in about 6 shows under different judges and I know the handling it good I leave them at home and let them grow up until they are ready. You are doing a disservice to yourself having a dog out there that is not at it's best in terms of building a reputation of having top dogs. Our sport takes alot of patience and the ability to know when to hit the bricks when the time is right. I hope that makes sense. To add to this post I agree with Nancy in that you can use this dog to learn with since you are just starting out. Go to the shows and really look at the dogs. Read the catalogs to see who they are out of, and see what style appeals to you. Study pedigrees, meet people, have fun, and enjoy your first dog. I know we all want to win and it has gotten to be so very competitive, but shows are really about evaluating breeding stock and seeing where your dogs measure up compared to other breeders. It is a learning experience as we are always looking for a stud that will improve our line, and who is producing the traits we are looking for. My first dog was really a pet and I just kept going and learned so much. I used to go to the specialites with my Mom and just watch learning as much as I could. There are many excellent dogs that never get a championship. As breeders that is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal for me is to look in my yard and be thrilled with the dogs I have bred.