Are you aware of the vast number of people breeding dilute Labradors to produce the colors silver, charcoal and champagne? Dilute breeders have a website and a petition site. They are petitioning the LRC and the AKC to include dilute Labradors. You may not think this affects you, but I beg to differ. Just ask around, see how many well known breeders have been fooled by the dilute breeders into selling them semen. Pedigrees show many outstanding stud dogs. Good breeders have no idea about the dilute lines they have contributed to. So please take a few minutes and visit our site. We encourage everyone to add your own endorsement to help keep our breed pure! Please...as one breeder said "DO NO HARM" and "Support only Black, chocolate and yellow". We need your voice so please join us!! http://www.notosilverlabradors.com/endorsements.html

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/equal-rights-for-all-purbred-labrador-retrievers.html

http://www.labradorcouncil.com/

The majority of them can't even put their city/state/country. I hope this isn't taken seriously.

Well, they must be serious because they have incorporated the Council of Purebred Labradors in the State of Ohio --
http://www2.sos.state.oh.us/reports/rwservlet?imgc&Din=201217700248

They have been trying for 15 years and will succeed if we do not take them seriously.

The dilute breeders have every right to breed their dogs as they see fit, just as the mixed breed designer breeders, commercial breeders, hobby breeders, etc. They are doing nothing wrong under the law and last I checked this is a free country.

You may not like it (I don't either), but that is their right. I will never breed the dilute into my lines nor will I allow my lines to enter into their lines if I can help it. The best we can do is inform our buyers where and how the color originated in the breed. Like it or not, it is here to stay. There are those who want to improve their lines and others who just want to keep producing it. A lot of the dilute breeders are doing health clearances and a lot of people like that look.

I don't like the look or temperament of the field dogs. I don't breed into those lines. I don't like the look of dilute gene's affect on the three colors, I won't use those lines. But there does come a point after breeding so many generations to purebred Labs that they are considered purebred. The Weimaraner that was used 10 generations back has very little influence now other than it contributed the dilute gene. Just like when the stud books closed in 1917 and Retrievers were then separated into actual breeds. We still have certain influences such as the long-coated gene and the black and tan gene as well as the brindle gene. We just don't breed dogs that express those traits.

However, I say to each their own. Enjoy what you breed, educate those who want to listen, and don't worry about what others do.

The difference between breeding designer etc dogs, they are not registered with the AKC, correct? There are some very nice show dogs that are now appearing in these dilute/silver pedigrees, at least two CH/MH.

Yes and what are you going to do about it? Rant and rave on a forum where you are preaching to the choir? Is that going to stop them from breeding? Doubt it. We can only do so much to protect our breed and our lines. As I said, after so many generations, they are considered purebred in the eyes of science. They are also registered and considered as purebred by our own kennel club. The time to act was when the first dogs appeared. There was outrage then and there still is, but the gene pool and number of breeders are growing and spreading around the world. The cat was let out of the bag a long time ago. I do hope that it will never be a recognized color in our standard, but that will remain to be seen in the future. Most breeders in the LRC do not recognize it nor do I feel that will ever change. This about all we can do about it.

Well, you don't need to be snotty about it. Education is key here. We assume we all know about the dilute problem, probably the same way we all think we know about how to raise a litter yet someone was on here the other day feeding bananas to a 3 week old litter.

Dilutes are a problem. Educate when you can. Talk about it if necessary at your all breed kennel clubs as they don't often know about how silvers AREN'T a standard color. It's not a big deal to try to make the general public aware since they ARE registered dogs.

Let's try to inform folks that they are buying dogs that are disqualified against the standard. Sure, those into designer breeds and anything deemed "rare" won't be turned, but maybe we'll tell someone who hadn't known. Or remind one stud owner to be extra careful about who they sell to.

No harm no foul.

This website is a great idea!!! I wish there was a section where we could name known dilute breeders in alphabetical format so we could avoid them. There's one in my neighborhood I would like to add that recently duped a breeder. Jack Vanderwyk has the idea. Thank you to who ever it was that put this site together!!!

The stud book is closed. Let them start their own breed if they want to. Just don't call them Labrador Retrievers.

What I meant, and it didn't come out right, is I hope the LRC doesn't take them seriously and consider the petition because they aren't even brave enough to put identifying information on the petition. I do believe they are serious and if you follow them or notice at all what they are doing on FB, they are trying to get something done.

I believe its time, though I agree that something should have been done at the beginning, to write LRC. Whatever you feel about them, they are still the parent club and if you are a member, you should at least make an attempt to support the breed.

I for one, will be writing, with links to the sites, to show them just how serious it has become.

I wonder, if AKC will at some point, override national clubs, when it comes to registrations (whatever the breed). This could be a new revenue source for them. Registered, whatever color, Labradors. Sad to contemplate, but with things lately, it makes you wonder.

Sue Puff

I'm confident it will never happen, Sue - if for no other reason than the parent club owns the standard. That together with having published a pretty blunt position statement on this subject give me a little faith for once.

Yes, why didn't more breeders react when they first showed up instead of a handful? Because they never thought it would amount to what it is today. If we all have that same mindset of sweeping a problem under the carpet, then it will never go away and only continue to get bigger. We already have enough breed health issues, so why do we need problems such as Dilute Alopecia which is a problem with Dilute Labradors and not Labradors of black, chocolate or yellow? I have to really disagree with your statement, this issue is not at all comparable to "designer dogs". This is about Labrador Retrievers and degrading the gene pool and our pedigrees. It is about dishonesty and ruining our hard work as breeders. It is about protecting our breed. If you want to close your eyes and turn your back and say "no big deal" then that is your choice. Others have spoken and lots of work has been done to protect our breed. Many breed clubs are posting anti-dilute statements. Judges are being educated. Breeders are posting statements on their websites. Hours and hours of pedigree research. It is paying off. This website is in it's infancy. So much more to come! It is never to late to take a stand and protect our breed. Thanks to everyone that is supportive and the many, many people behind the scenes around the world that have joined together to make a difference for "our" breed.

I made the comparison to designer breeds because in case you haven't noticed, Labradors are directly crossed with Poodles. There are probably just as many Labradoodle breeders as there are dilute breeders. Where is the uproar there? Oh they're not registered as purebred? Wait, they do have their own registry. Many breeders are passionate about their "breed". They get a lot of money for their crosses. Isn't using a Labrador on another breed just as much of a betrayal of the breed as it gets? Some top breeders of Labradors have done an occasion doodle breeding because they were cute. So the top lines have been fouled by breeding to another breed.

Dilute Labradors have been bred so long now that they are indeed a Labrador, just one of a different color. They still technically are a black, yellow or chocolate with a gene that was added not too long ago but long enough ago to effectively bred out much of the Weim.

No the dilutes won't ever be in the standard, but really, don't you have better things to do? Keep educating your puppy buyers, but beating a dead horse won't make it go any further.

Funny stuff again on wiscoy!! Love the word silver and dilute and you all get your panties in a bunch! Love it

No bunched up panties here, I'm rejoicing! You? hahahahaha, simply hilarious, you are a funny guy!

LOL seen many field dogs lately? You just describe most of what are seen in field trials. Not my cup of tea. I don't see you going after the "whippets" and telling them not to perpetuate the myraid of faults the field trial dogs have

And how are dogs innocent? They are dogs, they do not know the difference between innocent or guilty. They don't care what they look like either.

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LOL seen many field dogs lately? You just describe most of what are seen in field trials. Not my cup of tea. I don't see you going after the "whippets" and telling them not to perpetuate the myraid of faults the field trial dogs have. [/quote]

I was gonna say the same thing. Go to a hunt test or field trial and take a look.

LOL seen many field dogs lately? You just describe most of what are seen in field trials. Not my cup of tea. I don't see you going after the "whippets" and telling them not to perpetuate the myraid of faults the field trial dogs have. [/quote]

I was gonna say the same thing. Go to a hunt test or field trial and take a look. [/quote]

Yes, BUT, field folks know what they are doing. They are breeding for performance not looks. They aren't charnging an arm and a leg for anything other than performance ability and pedigree (and field labs have their own impressive lines!) Field folks aren't sneaking around trying to get a nice show stud into their lines by trickery and deceit. And if they were to try to improve looks to more closely match the standard, I don't think many of us would turn them down. If they are doing all the right clearances, proving their dogs, if they were to call and ask about bringing in a show line to their field line to improve looks, I think most of us wouldn't have a problem. So it's not really the same in my eyes.

The majority of the silver folks are breeding to produce the color to provide pets to folks who don't mind paying $2000 for rare. It's not about producing the next field champ or show champ. It's about inbreeding to keep producing theh color so that they can keep on getting $2K a pup.

I was gonna say the same thing. Go to a hunt test or field trial and take a look. [/quote]

Yes, BUT, field folks know what they are doing. They are breeding for performance not looks. They aren't charnging an arm and a leg for anything other than performance ability and pedigree (and field labs have their own impressive lines!) Field folks aren't sneaking around trying to get a nice show stud into their lines by trickery and deceit. And if they were to try to improve looks to more closely match the standard, I don't think many of us would turn them down. If they are doing all the right clearances, proving their dogs, if they were to call and ask about bringing in a show line to their field line to improve looks, I think most of us wouldn't have a problem. So it's not really the same in my eyes.

The majority of the silver folks are breeding to produce the color to provide pets to folks who don't mind paying $2000 for rare. It's not about producing the next field champ or show champ. It's about inbreeding to keep producing theh color so that they can keep on getting $2K a pup. [/quote]

Well show breeders breed for looks, as you said in your own words. Looks are almost always considered in breedings.
So the dilute breeders are breeding for a certain look (color is in mind) but want to improve looks further (the type which is fieldy) like the field bred FT/HT dogs; If they had a dog with performance titles and clearances, would you breed to them to help improve their looks?

Never. If someone is not honest about their breeding history and philosophy, why would anyone reputable want to enter into any sort of relationship with them?

Wordy asked - "So the dilute breeders are breeding for a certain look (color is in mind) but want to improve looks further (the type which is fieldy) like the field bred FT/HT dogs; If they had a dog with performance titles and clearances, would you breed to them to help improve their looks? "


In a word, NO. The dilute genes were introduced into the breed AFTER the Stud Books were closed. Their pedigrees have been falsified; no serious, responsible and reputable breeder is going to allow themselves to knowingly breed into a falsified pedigree. They have more respect and commitment to the bloodlines they've been entrusted with. Dilute breeders cannot say the same.....

Do breeders of field dogs care if their dogs are bred to dilutes?

You must be a silver person "Looks" is related to the standard. We breed to the standard, if you want to nitpick my words. Silver breeders are PURPOSELY breeding against the standard. Field breeders are just putting performance above the standard in regards to looks. But there are plenty of MH/CH dogs out there. Natually I don't know of any AFC/CH....

But to answer your question, NO, I would not allow a person who breeds dilutes to use one of my boys nor would I sell a puppy to them.

So would you say generally speaking field lab breeders don't want their lines showing up in dilute breedings either? I just wonder if they are against the registering of dilutes and if they will participate in the no-to-dilutes campaign. Do MOST field lab breeders carefully screen who they breed to? Are dilutes a topic you see on field lab forums?

Yes dilutes are discussed in field lab and hunting forums. There is always some negativity involved.
And yes some field breeders will breed to dilutes, knowingly. Some would not. Some screen more than others, especially for FC/AFC studs. But I don't think some breeders know pedigrees well enough to recognize dilute lines. Some dilute breeders don't try to dupe stud owners (they tell them the bitch is dilute) and take "no" if that's the answer to a breeding request.

I am very aware of all of this. I've seen the websites, the FB pages and posts on here. What I don't understand is why living in the Central Northeast I have never in my lifetime seen what they call silver or dilute dogs that even slightly resemble a labrador. I know they resemble Weims to a degree as that is how they brought those colors into Labradors. I don't consider them Labs. I call them mixed breeds, just like the designer breeds.

Where are these dogs going to when they sell a litter at the same prices we get for our Labs or more? I see plenty of designer breeds around, walking down the street in middle of my town or at the vets office. Usually they are mixtures of poodles and Labs called Labradoodles. They look like Standard Poodles that need a brush & comb through them or clipping. As I said, I have never seen a silver or charcoal supposed Labrador in the flesh.

So what areas are you ladies and gents from where you've actually seen these dogs or puppies? I'm curious at the least. I'm residing in the Central Northeast US, about 1 hour from the coastal area.

Thanks for any information.

They are everywhere. I recently found out there are 2 silver breeders in my area (< 15 miles away), I was surprised because I never see silver dogs anywhere around here. Both of these breeders have many many dogs too, one breeder has over 50 dogs! I found out they don't sell many pups locally but instead ship them all over the country. Most people looking for a pet won't spend what their asking for them especially when you can get a lab out of the newspaper for $400. Both of these breeders offer full registration (on approval, lol) for $500 more.

Come to central Virginia. Specifically Lynchburg and Roanoke surrounding areas. In our clubs dog classes we have at least a couple a year.

Sue Puff

Darn, that's too close for comfort. I haven't found any near me luckily. I figure they ship all over but I gues just not here yet in my state or few states around me. The Lab breeders educate the buyers well including myself but I've only had 1 request in allot of years. We all try to educate anyway. $500 is cheap, most of the websites I've seen they're $1500 and upward to $3000 plus shipping. Most of the breeders I've seen on websites are out in the central US. I guess it's whatever the market will bear.








Good to know SuePuff. They must be a sight to see. Do you or the other breeders ever tell them their dogs aren't real labradors or just stay quiet? I wouldn't be able not to say anything like I do with Labradoodles when they tell me AKC is going to eventually make them a real breed. Manure!

You misunderstood. the silvers are going for $1500-$2000 plus shipping, if you want full registration it's $500 MORE and females cost more than males.

Can anyone post an endorsement or just breeders?

Anyone can post an endorsement!

well done to the people who made the website! my only hope is that the links to other sites may someday be incorporated on to the notosilver labradors site. Maybe the authors of the other sites would give permission to use their articles? I think it would read better......just sayin.....

I did not misunderstand at all. Perhaps you misunderstood my wording. I completely understand.

I'm also against normal colored, large volume, show breeders that overcharge in the same way but for more money. Some beginning prices are at $3500 & up plus they also charge extra for full registration. 3 months ago 2 of my puppy buyers contacted that breeder before me and were both quoted the same prices by the hired help in the front office

I'm against the nonsensical dilute colours at any price, even for free. They are not Labrador Colours.

I also don't like when the normal colour breeders charge outrageous amounts. They show their dogs so they think it's okay to do. They begin at $3500 charging up to $5500 per puppy plus $1200 extra for full registration. No questions are asked why or about qualifications for full registration. Pay and you shall receive a puppy and a Full registration if requested.

None of it is right.

Original topic only; I'm on board to do anything to voice my opinion 100% against dilute breeders as it is not a real labrador colour and already have loudly voiced my opinion many times. I will continue to.

What other articles, just sayin. . . .

Yes, they do! In fact the field and hunt test people can be even more outspoken against the dilution colors (including dudleys) then show people. We cringe when we see a silver coming to the line at hunt tests! Mainly because:

1) we know that the owner was taken for a lot of money for a dog with -
A. potential health issues
B. Lack of desire or totally scatterbrained
C. unproven pedigree

2) most of the owners are new to the sport and come in with their dog thinking that it is rare, the best dog ever, and smart. They generally leave disappointed once the dog fails a simple HRC Started or AKC JH test.

3) most are trained by first time dog/lab owners without a clue as to what they are doing....and it shows. Unfortunately, many trainers refuse to train dilutes, or they go in with the attitude that they will be lucky to learn basic obedience.

While we love to encourage our new people coming into the dogs games, it is hard to tell a young man or woman that they should keep spending more and more time, money, and effort on a dog with so many issues! After a while, many have commented that their next dog would be from an accredited breeder and of the proper color!

Now, I will say that I have seen some birdy silver dogs, but they all seem to wash out once they get the basic junior title which in my book should be a walk in the park (if it is set up correctly) for the average run of the mill dog, and I frequently run and title my pups starting at 4 months of age (in HRC) and with little to no formal training.

Of course I feel for anyone who is suckered into buying a dog with unproven pedigrees or from a non working pedigree on the breeder's word that it will make a great hunting dog! Seen to many dogs that sulk, act totally piggish, and plod their way into a field and then give up after 20 ft or so! Not to mention the labs that "hate" to get their feet wet!

I hope someone will post the information for the notodilute website on the other (hunt/trial/training) forums.