I am looking for boys that consistently produce good fronts. I know my girl and what is behind her, but need ideas for boys that produce good fronts as her's is lacking for what I am aiming for.

TIA

Leave an email , I will send you a video.

email to ckcgoldens@yahoo.ca

Would you email me the video as well! Thanks

There must be no studs that can produce / improve fronts other than the one breeder that sent me information??

Anyone?

can email info to ckcgoldens@yahoo.ca

As a suggestion - go to Potomac and see who produces what.

Unless you can look at the offspring alongside its dam and sire you really can't see who produced what. Not only that, but there have been times that another dog in the pedigree contributes attributes that the dam and/or sire didn't.

You need both sides of the equation to determine what will be produced. As an example, I was at a Specialty Show a few months ago and saw a puppy sired by the same sire as my puppy. That pup was straight in the front with a shorter upper arm. My pup, on the other hand, has a lovely front structure and angulation. It wouldn't be fair to judge a sire based on the inferior dog.

Another way to consider researching would be the Internet. Look up a sire that you might be interested in. Go to OFA and make a list of the offspring and their dams that are listed. Then search the web for images of the off-spring and its dam to make a comparison. I think you will find that most sires produce entirely different pups depending on the bitch they are bred to.

Good luck! Fronts are tough to improve...more difficult in my experience than rears or heads or toplines or coat.

Or ask the stud dog owner . Since they see what their stud produces bred to multiple bitch lines,they would know. Most stud dog owners have pics of their boy's get on his page .

Unfortunately, many stud dog owners don't get to see everything their dog produces. They may never see the bitch in person, and rarely does the stud dog owner get to see ALL of the puppies in a litter. They may see the breeders' pick puppy if it happens to make it to a website or to a show that the stud dog owner attends. Think about it, most stud dog owners are shipping semen to parts of the country they don't get to visit.

Sadly, not all stud dog owners are truthful and forthcoming. Another thing to be careful of are photos on websites or in catalog ads that are "touched up".

Best research is to attend the shows and see the dogs in person. I see a BIG difference in the photos of the dogs I see in ads and on websites, and the dogs I see at the shows... Plus, a photo doesn't show you the easty-westy or the cow hocks. I'm also suspicious of photos of dogs taken when they are standing in tall grass. Put the dog on concrete or hard dirt so we can see those pasterns, feet, and hocks.

The last post is a load of crap. I request and receive stacked 7 week pics of all of my boy's litters. And the bitch owners are happy to send them. And all in all , your post is suspicious , untrustworthy, and just plain negative nelley ! Why would we intentionally breed litters that would not produce quality puppies ? I hope YOU never call me, I would refuse you . Whenever anyone questions my honesty I want to growl and show my teeth! The proof is in the pudding, a quality stud dog has puppies making the news for them !

The last post may be somewhat negative, but it is not a total load of crap either. Seeing a dog in person, seeing them move, putting one's hands on the dog is all good advice. Seeing the offspring in person is also good advice.

Also, I have never been asked for pictures of puppies (stacked or otherwise) out of my bitch by the stud dog owners. I have sent them, and sometimes get a response and sometimes not. I often hear when the dogs finish championships or some other significant title (MH, UD, etc.) but other than that, I am not sure they are even interested. These are studs owned by well-known breeders. I am sure they get many people breeding to their boys so understand, but I would also say that asking to see photos is not all that common either.

I think sometimes we take that chilled in a box and never look back. I think most stud owners would like pictures. I think most never hear much of anything. Some would like to and some seem busy, so we don't bother. But I always wanted to hear. Good thing or bad things. That way the stud owner could tell us more. I like to see that the owner uses their own stud dog. I like to see a generation or two on the mothers side. We do need nice fronts right now. See some shown with none. But must be balanced so don't loose a good rear. Good luck.

I am responding with some hesitation because there must me numerous dogs out there who have and are consistently producing correct front assemblies. But, one I do know, and bred to when he first came to the States, is James ... Beechcroft Study's Top Secret. I have been in the same situation, as many of us have been ... trying to improve upright fronts/short upper arms in an otherwise nice bitch. James did a wonderful job for me, as did Ghoststone Louie Downtown in the previous generation of this bitch line. Unfortunately, neither is currently available, but the bloodlines are out there.

It is absolutely true that stud dog owners don't always get to see the bitch who has ordered the semen.

It is absolutely true that bitch owners don't always get to see pictures of all the puppies produced in the litter.

It is absolutely true that some photos are touched up.

it is absolutely true that you should do everything possible to see the stud dog in person and see some of his kids and the other bitches he's been bred to that produced those puppies.

Most stud dog owners are up front and will answer your questions.

Buy a bitch with a good front and know the pedigree behind the bitch. Then breed her . Do not start with a medicore bitch that has a bad front, and try to improve it with a stud dog. Why do people start with medicore fronts?

I rarely speak up about things like this which create bad threads, but all I can say about this last comment is OMG, how unrealistic. The reason I say that is that it would be nice if it was that easy. . I can remember 15 years ago when I got started....it takes relationship building....think of all the long time, influential breeders out there. You can't just call them up and say "yes, I'd like to buy a bitch with an outstanding pedigree with a good front please." Sometimes you just do the best that you can do. Hopefully you have a mentor or friends that can be honest with you or give you a hand.

Poster, look for the best dog that not only has a good front but is balanced. Breed to the whole dog, not just a piece. I can say with certainty that some of these long time breeders can be called and talked to comfortably. They will tell you what their dog can and cannot do. Besides, it's a great way to get to know people....good luck! I can think of a number of dogs and their breeders that I would call.....

Sue Puff

Yes, relationship building does take a long time, and it should. I did it, and 8 years later I was offered a really nice bitch that comes from a long line of beautiful fronts. This was after years of attending shows just to watch, having boys that I competed with in hunt tests and obedience, and finally show. This enabled me to learn a lot about the breed through wonderful mentors who gave me an invaluable education. I got involved in my breed club and have been active for years. By the time I bred my first litter, I was ready. That litter produced several champions and many performance titled dogs, including a MH.

I think what is unrealistic is to expect to be in the breed 5 minutes and be handed a nice bitch for breeding. It happens, but not often. While this coincides with many people's desire for instant gratification, it really does nothing for the breed when breeders know very little about the breed prior to breeding. The time taken to build relationships and pay one dues also provides the learning experiences necessary to become a responsible breeder.

"Why do people start with medicore fronts?"

People start with mediocre fronts because good fronts are hard to find. When we do breed one, we're not about to sell her to someone else.