I called an apparently ethical breeder about owning one of her dogs, from an upcoming litter. Although she sells her dogs on a limited AKC registration, she agreed to sell me a female. I made it clear, at the time of our initial conversation, that I was a breeder with almost thirty years experience, and that I may be interested in breeding this girl down the road, (assuming she cleared). When we ended our conversation, the breeder was on board . She would let me have one of her females, from the agreed upon litter and assuming she passed all of her health tests, I would be free to breed her.
About a month later, I called back to check on the dam's progress. I was basically told that in no way was I going to own one of these dogs.
I realize that it is a breeder's preogative to change her mind, but I had done a
lot of research on this litter and had passed over several other girls that had been offered to me in the meantime.
How can we be expected to improve this lovely breed, when we are forbidden to try, from the very people who are supposed to care?

How is this ethics? Sorry you missed out on this puppy. Not every breeder feels the same way. How can you commit to saying you are going to improve what she is already breeding. Some would just rather sell on a limited registration to a pet home and not have to worry about what happens to their girl if she is bred. What if your plans don't go as you say, which often happens in breeding, and then this breeder placed one of her girls on an open registration and she has no way to take it back. I agree a breeder can sell their puppies to whoever they feel is the best fit and if they change their mind they can do that also.

You need to establish a relationship with the breeder. You need to go to the shows. You need to show that you are going to be an asset to the breeder's program and not just another headache. newer breeders need to understand that, for the seasoned breeder, it is a much better deal to sell puppies as pets than sell puppies for show/breeding. I've known a lot of newbies that think that they are doing a favor to the breeder by buying one of his/her puppies for show. NOT! The person that is entrusted with a puppy from a re-known breeder should be grateful and consider him/herself lucky. JMHO

If this were a puppy buyer who backed out abruptly, they would most likely lose a deposit of several hundred dollars - why is it ok for a breeder to change their mind a month later but not a puppy buyer? I am not saying things do not happen and it may not be unethical, but it certainly is rude and inconsiderate not to communicate concerns up front, rather than stringing someone along until something better comes along.

In the long run, the puppy buyer is better off in this situation because this probably is not a breeder one wants to have a 10-15 year relationship with.

Before judging this breeder, I would want to know what changed in that month between the initial and final conversations. Remember, we are only hearing one side of the story here.

What did the breeder learn about the prospective buyer that caused her to say "no way"?

If, as claimed, the buyer has a 30 year history in the breed, there may be a skeleton that was discovered, and I say kudos to the breeder for forgoing the potential revenue and putting the welfare of her puppies first.

If not, and the breeder just changed her mind about selling a pup from a litter that hasn't yet been born and no deposit was collected, so what? There was no contract.

Go elsewhere. There are plenty of breeders out there.

I agree with the other person who said you need to develop a relationship with a breeder before you try to get a show/breeding potential pup. I suspect the breeder simply decided that you would not be a good partnership for her. There are a lot of choosy breeders out there which is a good thing for the breed even if it's not the best thing for you.

You say you have 30 years experience. What have you been doing for 30 years? I would think that a breeder with that much experience should have no difficulty getting a good bitch from a reputable breeder. There are certainly plenty of beautiful Labradors out there and you should be able to find your preferred pedigree with someone else.

Is there something else you aren't revealing - some kind of history that would make the breeder unwilling to sell you a bitch?

Maybe you came on a bit strong and the breeder didn't know how to say "no" to you.

Maybe there is something wrong with this breeding that s/he didn't want to mention.

Whatever the reason, it would have been polite to have called you shortly afterwards to cancel.

It sounds more like the breeder of the litter found something out about you that she did not like, which caused her to change her mind about going through with it. Whether true or not, people do talk.

why don't you call the breeder and ask for the reason and tell her no matter what it is you would like to know.

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you for your responses, but a few of you got my blood boiling a bit.
First of all, ethics are the specific values, standards, rules, and agreements people adopt for conducting their lives. If one cannot count on a person's word, where are we?
Secondly, I've no skeletons in my closet. I defy any other breeder to find one. I've been breeding, like I said, for almost 30 years and in that time, only 14 litters. I'm not like several of you, who breed 4-5 litters a year. My dogs are first and foremost, an integral part of my family. If I've used a female for breeding, once that time is over for her, she remains with me for the rest of her life. I've never placed a dog older than a puppy...ever. Many of you trade dogs like hockey cards. Once they've served their purpose, for you, they're sold.
Thirdly, I would never call the breeder again and ask for her explanation as to why she wouldn't sell me a dog. She told me that she won't sell to breeders. Although she did say she would, initially.
Finally, I will never deal with this person again as I don't appreciate being strung along. I know that there are others who have been lied to by this particular breeder. Seems to me there's a little clique amongst some of you. I'm well enough connected in the Labrador world, and I've already found a few puppies that will fit in very well with my plans. Oddly enough, their breeders are just as happy as I am.

It sounds like this breeder has talked to someone and has been told a few things they didn't want to hear about the puppy buyer. However, it would have been nice of her to say why she doesn't feel that you are a suitable owner of one of her puppies, although it is completely up to her. I think breeders really do need to become more enlightened about where and to whom they sell their puppies or adult dogs. I know of one case recently where a dog from North America was sold internatinally to someone who is knownly using their stud dogs over silver lines, I fully expect this new boy to used over them as well. I would put money on it that the seller of this dog had or has no idea that this would be the case

I think most breeders would like to be able to place a nice puppy with someone who has the potential to become an asset to the breed. But, it is not that easy. It is hard to tell if a potential buyer has what it takes. And once that puppy is out the door, it is all over. Even limited registration can be worked around. It is a whole lot easier to spot good pet puppy buyers. I will always sell to a good pet person in preference to a person interested in breeding who I do not know really, really well.

Paul, To answer the specific question I think you are presenting, no, it is not right to say first that she is going to place a puppy with you, and then a month latter,say "in no way I will place a dog with you" Now, did you put a deposit down for that puppy? If you didn't there is no responsibility at all from the breeder side and you shouldn't count on a puppy until you put money down.
What happened in between, only you and/or the breeder know. Get the experience and learn from it. Breeding 30 years might not be enough for you to know how to move around the Labrador breeders.

You've been breeding for 30 years, but do you do anything with your dogs besides that?

i have known this person for over 20 years , breeds very occasionally is a obedience judge also. and has put on many a title on his dogs . he keeps his dogs for life . i would have no issues placing a dog with him

then YOU sell him a puppy. As mentioned earlier... you are hearing only ONE side of the story.

If you read this forum at all, you know responses to your post are not always exactly what you want to hear. Afterall, YOU asked. Sorry you didn't get the answers that you wanted.

Ethical? I don't think ethics have anything to do with it. In your opinion, they reneged on an agreement. Oh well. Better you find out now that this is a person you don't want to do business with. Whatever their reason.

Say this situation was about a pet puppy buyer, and the breeder had a gut feeling, or information that it wasn't the right home for one of their babies. Without a signed contract, deposit, or whatever. The breeder is under no obligation to place the puppy with anyone they are not comfortable placing a puppy with. How many of us have interviewed, met with, and have approved a sale to a puppy buyer, and then we got a bad feeling, and either denied selling the puppy to the people, or did sell the puppy to the people and regretted it, or had to go get their puppy back? The only ethics in question, is the breeders own personal ethics and about placing their puppies in the best homes possible, whether it be a show or a pet puppy. My puppies are mine until they leave here, not a commodity.

Once again, thanks to all of you for your responses. I've learned quite a bit about what makes some of you tick.
I will say this however; I was not looking for any type of support, just venting about something I feel quite strongly about. In my world, a person's word is their bond. If, for some reason that changes, I believe it to be my duty to state why. Of course I've refused to sell to puppy buyers, but I've always told them why...usually face to face. When that's not possible, certainly over the phone.
I bought my first Labrador from a guy who is still a very good friend of mine. He didn't even know about limited registrations and when I told him I was going to breed his girl, my first UD, he was quite proud. Today, after producing my seventh generation from that original girl and several UD's and field titles, I'm still going strong. In fact this man owned one of my dogs. He had faith in me as have several other wonderful people I've met doing what I do. If he cared, I could have done him a lot of good as a breeder, but he wasn't/isn't a pompous, self-righteous, selfish individual. He's a nice guy!
Please don't respond to this as I'm just venting and I hate to be YELLED at.

I have to agree.... If there was no contract, or deposit or whatever there is no obligation. Are you owed an explaination? Maybe. But at the end of the day, the breeder has the responsibility of placing the puppy in an enviroment it will thrive in. There is only one side of the story told here...

I'm responding exactly because of this statement. If you want to vent on an public forum, especially an anonymous one, you are going to get responses whether you want them or not. If you don't want a response, go outside and yell into the wind.

You sound like you feel entitled to get the puppy of your choice from the breeder of your choice along with full registration regardless of the breeder's published policy of selling only on limited registration, simply because you did a lot of research and you have had Labradors for 30 years, bred some litters over that time, and have gotten obedience titles. It almost sounds as if you expect the breeder to be eternally grateful that you decided to grant her the privilege of selling you a puppy.

Whatever your first conversation was, there was no contract, no deposit, and we only are hearing your side of the story.

There is another side to this that we haven't heard, but frankly, that doesn't matter. After reading your arrogant posts here, I would not be anxious to sell you a puppy either. Sometimes even the best breeders are not the best people to sell puppies to if there is accompanying aggravation to deal with.

What about a puppy buyer who suddenly becomes uncomfortable with the breeder? What if they were led to believe the parents had clearances and then it was discovered one or both were bred on prelims, or failed clearances? What if upon visiting the breeder, the puppy buyer decides that they don't like the conditions and would not want to pay $$$ for a puppy out of that establishment? Isn't the puppy buyer entitled to back out WITH their deposit? I am wondering what breeders would do in the reverse situation.

I think a person needs to do their homework before putting the deposit down. Once the deposit is put down, the breeder probably is turning down people that inquire about their pups being the pups are spoken for. If the puppy buyer feels they really dont want the pup after the deposit, dont expect to get the deposit back as you are backing out of a contract.

My deposit policy is:

Deposits will be accepted at any time after a puppy questionnaire is completed. Deposits are fully refundable until three days after the puppies are born, or three days after the deposit is made, whichever is later. Deposits are also refunded if we cannot give you a puppy for any reason. Unused deposits may be used on a future puppy. Deposits may be made by cash, check, money order, bank check, the balance of the payment for the puppy is only by cash or POSTAL money order.

Once someone has made a commitment to a puppy, I turn down other potential homes. The deposit is there to protect the puppy. If someone decides to back out at the last minute, I now have to find a new home, and that usually takes time. The deposit helps cover the cost of raising the puppy (vaccinations, vet care, food, etc.) and also helps make up the difference in price because people typically don't want to spend as much money on an older puppy.

Maybe she realized the dog would live in a kennel? A whelping box? I'd much rather have my pups laying in front of the fireplace surrounded by three kids.

How do you know that the policy of limited registration was published, or that there was no contract and no deposit? HMMM!!!

The only arrogance here is yours. I would think any breeder would be proud to know that someone considers their lines a welcome addition to an existing breeding program, as insignificant as you think it is.
If you back out of an agreement have the courtesy to inform the other party. I would have loved to introduce these lines into my breeding program and I respect the position taken by the breeder. I just think it would have been nice to know the reason(s). Try to remember why I started this...ethics.
BTW I'm happy to hear all about your deposit policy. However, if you're so concerned with the wellbeing of your puppies, they should be your primary concern, not someone's deposit or your inconvenience for having to keep a puppy a little longer. I was under the impression that all of you are so well respected that you'd have a waiting list a mile long.

Paul I am following this thread and again you just said "I just think it would have been nice to know the reason(s)" I ask again.. if you are that upset that you need to come here to vent you should go directly to the breeder and ask instead of saying you will never speak to her again.

""After reading your arrogant posts here, I would not be anxious to sell you a puppy either.""

This is sad. This reminds me of the "soup-nazi" on Seinfield..."no soup for you". I haven't taken Paul's posts as arrogant at all but some of the breeders that responded......well, that's another story and a problem with a lot of breeders. Losing a puppy after being promised one is hard and no different than if your bitch had missed and you had big dreams for a puppy. Stop acting like breeder-nazi's and have a little compassion.

Paul,
I hope that you get your deposit back. I also hope that you call the breeder you had a signed contract with and ask them why they broke their contract with you. I would also want to know at this point what happened, your first post made it sound like you had a verbal agreement, sorry I misunderstood you. Does your signed contract, specify that you wanted a breeding dog?

I have a nonrefundable deposit contract, because I turn away other puppy buyers, but what they don't know, is I will almost always give back their deposit, I do not ever want to force the hand of someone that really doesn't want my puppy over a couple hundred dollars.

I am left wondering what ethics has to do with this though, are you talking about the breeder's ethics and morals, or yours?

ethics plural of eth·ics (Noun)
Noun
Moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior.
The moral correctness of specified conduct.
Synonyms
morality - morals - ethic - moral

Sorry, I made some assumptions. When you said "Although she sells her dogs on a limited AKC registration" I assumed that it was her published policy. You didn't mention a contract or deposit, so I assumed that there was only a verbal agreement. My bad. I hope you get your deposit back and that the contract is easily cancelled.

My pups are never an inconvenience - the deposit policy is for them to ensure they get the best possible homes at the best possible time.

Since you brought this discussion to the forum, in the interest of ethical fairness, I would like to hear the breeder's side of the story and what led her to cancel her contract with you. You never even hint at the reason but I suspect you do have a clue.

It went something like this: I had a specific litter I wanted to buy from. The breeding was to take place with the puppies being due in March. When we spoke the second time, I was told that the breeding was a failure, and that the bitch had missed before, so she would not be used again. I'm not sure whether any of this is true. I'm not 100% sure why, but I think my reasons are well founded.
Then we spoke about another litter that the breeder deemed would not be a good fit for me, considering my background in obedience.
The breeder did mention another person who would be using the stud overseas, and that I may be interested in contacting her.
It was at that point that I said to the breeder that it didn't sound as if she really wanted me to have a dog...to which she said yes, because she doesn't sell to breeders. Don't forget, we had agreed to my having a dog and that I had emailed her a few times before this call and never got a response.
I did contact the person overseas, and she told me that at the last minute, after all the arrangements had been made from her end, the breeder refused to ship the semen. Needless to say, she too was very disappointed.
Thus the title, Ethics.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

**I** am the *Breeder* in question. I was (and probably should still) not going to respond to this post, but now that the facts are becoming a bit convoluted, I think that it’s time I chime in.

Paul contacted me several weeks ago about a puppy. My first response was *no* as I explained to him, I do not like placing puppies with full registration. He informed me that he was an obedience judge and really wanted a nice puppy to work with in obedience. I still did not feel 100% comfortable, but I did have a litter coming up that I thought might fit the bill, as both parents have allot of drive. I reluctantly, told him, ok, let’s just wait and see what she has. No deposit was offered or accepted.

Well, that bitch missed. When Paul called me back a week or so ago, to see what she had, I told him she missed. I do have another litter, but as I explained to him, I did not feel that it would produce what he was looking for in a top obedience prospect. Paul then told me that he had also been looking at another litter, and that he was reluctant to take one of those because one of the parents did not pass an elbow. So, what I see here, is a fellow that was STILL shopping around while he was waiting for one of my puppies.

During this conversation, Paul kept insisting that I should place one of the puppies from the second litter with him. And I mean insisting. This guy was not taking no for an answer. So I finally just told him loud and clear NO. I was sorry to have to be rude, but on the same hand, I do not like anyone trying to push me into a corner like that.

Now, after coming here and seeing him posting this dirty laundry on this forum, I know why my gut said *no way*. So there you have it... I went with my gut and glad that I did.

How I decide to place my puppies, or who I decide to send semen to, is my business. Please due NOT question my ethics.

Peeps - wash your laundry BEFORE hanging it out... there's nothing "cute" about those brown smears on your undies!!

I'm glad to hear you finally tell your side of the story, although it's a little off. There's one thing you've misunderstood. In no way did I ever insist on a puppy from the other litter we spoke about. I wanted a puppy from that male. That was obvious. That's why I ended up overseas.
As for shopping around...what difference does that make? You asked me to stay in touch and I did. That should have been an indication to you, that I was still very interested. You just didn't have the courtesy to let me know what was going on at your end. Did it ever occur to you that maybe I'm looking at purchasing more than one puppy.
Get your gut checked out. You're 100% wrong on this one.

So reading through all of this...the breeder did not have a puppy to sell you...what are you upset about? You just stated that you did not want a puppy from the second litter and she felt it was not a good match for what you wanted so she told you why she was saying "no". I would think you would rather work with someone that is honest and tells you that the dogs are not going to have the work ethic you want from the other litter than sell you a puppy that is likely not going to work. I guess I am not seeing the full issue here. No deposit was placed, no promises made...it was agreed to wait and see what she got.

I dont see anything unethical here. It seems Paul is just a little bitter when things dont go exactly his way. I would have the same gut feeling about Paul and not sell him a puppy either.

Paul, when you "reserve" your puppy with Breeder A, its time to stop looking. Even if you were looking for multiple pups, some breeders might not want their pup to go to a home with multiple new puppies.

Paul, Im sure the lines you want are out there. Cant you breed to a stud dog with lines you want and produce your own puppies? You have been doing this for 30 years. Is there something else your not telling us?

Outside Observer

I have been fully aware of the dealings between The Breeder and Paul from the beginning. The Breeder and I discussed every day like sitting around a kitchen table enjoying our morning coffee and planning the day's events.

As the encounters unfolded, I was told about the breeding overseas. I expressed to The Breeder of the problems I had with the requestor and shared the approximate 50+ emails received during my lack of judgement in engaging in this relationship. This prompted The Breeder to not send semen given the content in my emails that I shared and how I was treated. In fact, when The Breeder refused, the same negative treatment was encountered.

Paul questions The Breeder in regards to the 1st litter (the one he requested a puppy from) that did not come to fruition. I know for a fact that the bitch did not get pregnant as I saw her in person at The Breeder's house a week ago. I commended my friend, The Breeder, for not sending something that did not fit the performance criteria she believed Paul was looking for. It is sad that someone cannot accept a situation when they want something so badly. It is what it is.

As breeders, we are not obligated to place any of our puppies. I feel we can change our mind if we have that gut feeling. I have. I do. And I always will. I will gladly send deposit money back, if taken, to ensure the well being and safety of a puppy that will live in a household, be it pet or in another breeder's home, for 13 to 15 years.

Signed,
The Breeder's Friend
Who knows the whole story from The Breeder's persepctive as it unfolded daily.

Please take this PRIVATE ! I don't want to know, and this takes up valuable space. And Paul , I wouldn't sell you a puppy either ! When someone airs dirty laundry in public, red flags are on the field, try to muster up some class Paul ! Grow up and stop whining , puppies sold with open registration are rarely done, and after this ridiculous thing you have started, it will be done less !

Please read the post this AM. I understand that the bitch didn't get pregnant, but I was suspicious. It's not too difficult to see why I would be.
I did not insist on a puppy from litter # 2. I don't know how else to say that, so you'll understand. I respect your breeder friend for steering me away from that litter, thinking that I would be disappointed.
My problem is in the method, like I've said many times. I emailed your friend twice and got no response. When I called, I was surprised by the change in attitude. A door that I would have liked to have remain opened, was abruptly shut. There was no mention of maybe something down the road...nothing. Case closed! I got off the phone feeling like some sort of pariah.
As for overseas, think about it. Two people got treated quite poorly by your friend with no explanation...just ignorance.
Like I said earlier, your friends gut couldn't be more wrong.

I am Breeder 30 (not to be confused with breeder30.)

If the puppy was being purchased for obedience, then limited registration would be fine, you only need full registration to show in conformation, or for breeding. Full can be granted later, or not, after certain conditions are met.

"So reading through all of this...the breeder did not have a puppy to sell you...what are you upset about? You just stated that you did not want a puppy from the second litter and she felt it was not a good match for what you wanted so she told you why she was saying "no". I would think you would rather work with someone that is honest and tells you that the dogs are not going to have the work ethic you want from the other litter than sell you a puppy that is likely not going to work. I guess I am not seeing the full issue here. No deposit was placed, no promises made...it was agreed to wait and see what she got. "

Here's my take. "Okay" summarized this beautifully. No tantrums in public were needed by a would-be buyer, especially for the litter that didn't happen. I do understand wanting the perfect pedigree, with looks and brains and working ability, too, BUT THE LITTER WAS NOT BORN! This is not exactly a rare breed. Plenty of good Labs work well in obedience, getting multiple OTChs, even NOCs. What is all the fuss, except that someone didn't get his way, when the breeder didn't either: the litter was not even born?!?!?! That fuss, that temper, would have scared me off him, too, even with limited registration. Is Paul the real name of the OP? I don't know who the parties are.

People like you makes me feel good when I'm so "elitist" about who gets my open registration puppies. It is not worth all the head ache you have caused the breeder by coming to this forum trying to bash her. You are a trouble maker and you should not "expect" anything from any other breeder in the future. I doubt it that any body that reads this forum would ever give an open registration puppy to an obedience judge named Paul.

Amen.

Amen x 2