I'm wondering what breeders think regarding breeding puppies. How many are too many in a year. Where is the line drawn in the sand when enough is enough. When should one rethink their strategy and look to their hearts instead of the wallet. Are they truly looking to better the breed or is the almighty dollar the driving force. Thank You Much

I'm sure there will be many opinions as there always is on this topic. I think if you asked 100 breeders, you might get 100 different answers?! I know from first hand experience that making a dollar breeding dogs is a tuff thing too do... I rarely see a profit, and if there is any extra then it goes back into food, vet bills, ect...I will say that I don't think your evil if you make a profit. As long as your doing it the right way. I wish that I could see a profit. There are exceptions..... I think most know who the puppy mill type breeders are... At the end of the day, everyone is responsible for their own actions. I do my very best to do things the right way. That's as much as I can do.......

Thank you for your honest response. I know a breeder who has bred over 150 puppies thus far this yr. and it is only April. Obviously millers, but in sheepskin clothing to the unsuspecting.

Why is it any of your stinking business how another breeder breeds? Do you have any first hand knowledge of how they care for their dogs? Have you seen substandard conditions *firsthand* of poor care? If so, did you report it? If not you have no right to judge these breeders. Before you want to say but, but, but they produce health issues, let any breeder who has bred a fair amount of dogs without producing a problem raise their hand! If you don't like to breed in a higher volume, don't. If you don't want to buy from a larger volume breeder, don't.

And since when did making money doing something you love become a cardinal sin? Veterinarians make money, handlers make money, dog food companies make money off our dogs, why is it so bad that a breeder may make money? It does not mean they are cutting corners, they just happen to breed in higher volume than you agree with, but that doesn't make it wrong. As long as they have a market/demand, what's wrong with that? I am sure they have plenty of happy puppy buyers.

Throwing around that slang word, passing judgment without first hand knowledge and making sweeping generalizations about other breeders is one reason the Animal Rights groups are getting more and more laws passed to restrict ALL breeders. Sounds like your grudge against this particular breeder is taken straight from the AR playbook. Well done!

Well now, must have hit somewhat of a nerve. Who's to say I do not have first hand knowledge. I just asked a questions. I guess if the boot fits. Hmmm. Slip it on.....Haapy Easter

Thought it was someone who really wanted an answer. BUT think you are after some of the same who will never change their bad habits. I breed one or two very nice litters a year to have something for me to show. That is it. How many pups can you keep. Most of us not that many if we are truly thinking of the best for the breed. Some if well known can breed to share a great pup. But just doing it for the money makes most of us crazy.

It is unbelievable that there are still people that come to this forum to through a question that makes no difference on anything and just make people that do enjoy the forum for real problems or joys lose their time.
Mind your business and if you are part of the solution go ahead and do something instead of making no sense posts in a anonymous forum.

Well said............

I ask the question because I can. Last time I checked this was an open forum, if it bothers you to have that particular questioned asked. Then that is your issue. Not mine. A few answered honestly. Some, just feathers got ruffled. It doesn't change the question. I read on here a few days ago regarding a Potomac post that some make 300,000 a yr selling puppies and they were called a miller. Do you not agree?

That's a lot of animals going out the door. How can one possibly be doing that to better the breed. Or just supply and demand. How is it you can post such ugly answers if your not involved right in the thick of my question. If you are makings tons of money off any beloved breed just because of supply and demand. Then shame on you. You my friend, in my opinion are nothing but a mill. I asked an honest question. How many is to many. Some have what they call outside kennels when they farm out their bitches to be bred off property. How does one control that when they are not there. So please climb off your high horse and relax. It's just a question. This is just a forum. So either don't answer it. Like the other 177 that read it. And if you have nothing nice to say. Don't say anything at all. Your intimidation tactics won't work with most. Does it work with all those dogs ??

Are you a breeder? I only ask because those in the Animal Rights camps and many shelter workers firmly believe that ANYONE who breeds just ONE litter of puppies is KILLING shelter dogs. They squarely put the blame on ALL breeders and want to put an end to ALL breeding. They want your only choice in obtaining a dog to be some random bred mutt off the street or from some third world country.

Who cares who makes what breeding and selling dogs? As long as the dogs are well cared for and placed in good homes, why do you really care? Better the breed? Haha! According to whom? The show breeders? Have you seen some of those huge lumbering specimens in the ring? The field breeders with their hard driven, lightly got up dogs? The guide dog school, some of whom have done cross breeding? Why is it wrong for someone who wants to breed healthy pets to breed them? Why do you assume they don't love and care deeply about raising happy healthy puppies? Why do you assume it's only about the money? Why is it that doing something you LOVE and making money doing it is wrong? In the eyes of the AR, breeding is WRONG period!

You don't know me nor do you know how often or how little I breed, you just assume that because I don't put my nose in someone else's business, that I breed as you describe. You know what they say about assuming!

No I'm not a breeder, No I do not work for any shelter. Nor am I an AR as you call them. And i do not support PETA, I actually have a hand full of dogs, non of which are Heinz 57. All pure bred. I merely asked the question because I wanted to know. I actually do have an issue with people selling that many dogs. It's not healthy to breed a bitch every time she goes in heat. I don't care how much health testing one does. And yes I do see an issue with people breeding just to make money. By rights most responsible breeders will tell you there is really no money in it. If gaining back enough to cover your cost in any particular breeding would be considered a win fall for most. So once again, just lerk if you don't like the question. Like most do. You've done a lot of assuming yourself in your last post. Wrong in every assumption.

Don't always assume that every breeder is finding good homes, and hoping all is well. And checking and re checking where all these dogs are going to. There is no reality in that assumption. You ask who cares who makes what breeding and selling dogs. Well someone better, or else your breed is in a lot of trouble.

I ask the questions of you, not making assumptions about you or any other breeder I have no first hand knowledge of. Simply saying it is not wrong to make money doing something you love. There are many breeder, not just Lab breeders, that do so. If you have an issue with that, that's your hang up, not mine nor the general consensus of breeders. Making money breeding is not a sign of being reputable/responsible or not. Breeding and selling dogs to fill a demand is not necessarily wrong. I'm not sure where you are getting this idea from. Should ranchers and farmers stop breeding animals for food because they make money? Should we just give away our dogs because we might make money? Your argument is just plain silly!

You're stereotyping large volume breeders with whom you have no first hand knowledge of. It sounds like from your original post that you are just out on witch hunt over the breeder that was being bashed on here last week. How many large volume breeders do you know? How many have you visited? Do you know for sure this breeder makes $300,000 a year? How much of that do they spend on food, vet care, show expenses, facilities, kennel help, etc, etc?

There is no magic number as to how many is too many litters. There is an obvious demand for purebred dogs, despite the vilification by the AR camps and some shelter workers. Who will fill that demand? Should your so called reputable breeders breed more to fill that demand? What happens if they did and made more money? Would they no longer be reputable in your eyes?

I'm not assuming every breeder finds good homes for their dogs, but as whole, most breeders do. Most people who pay good money for a dog will keep it, the stats back that up. A few anecdotal incidents do not paint an overall picture of the entire breeding industry. People need to wake up and look at the bigger picture instead of getting hung up on things that really don't matter.

Our breed has been the number one breed in the country for over 20 years. There are more than 150,000 Labs registered per year. Where do they come from? Where do they go? The Labrador still is the number one breed for all those years, someone is doing something right and I don't see anything wrong in our breed (well except maybe the introduction of the dilute gene, but that's a whole 'nuther story!). I breed my way. I don't dictate to others how they should breed. Everyone is different and have a different set of morals and values. This alone does not mean they are wrong. This is a free country and we still have the right to choose how to breed as we see fit. If you don't like it, don't buy, sell or recommend them, but just stay out of their business and stop assuming they are horrible people if they choose to be able to make money doing something they love.

Never said they were horrible, your assuming again, your on a soap box appearing to drum up backers. Kind of sad. I stand by how I feel. And again, it was just a questions. But your responses actually helped a lot. As to whom I am dealing with. Thanks for that. Good luck in your breeding program.

You're talking about these people caring more about their wallets than their dogs. Sounds like you are implying they just horrible people to me. How do you know they don't love their dogs and love raising puppies? Why do you assume that just because they make money they care more about that than their dogs? You don't know and therefore you keep flapping your gums about how many litters is too many, go back to your cave!

I don't care who backs me or not. I am tired of breeder bashing. I see too much of it with Animal Rights extremist out to vilify anyone who breeds. Your question of how many is two [sic] many is just another way to divide breeders and pass judgment on something you know little about (seeing how you aren't a breeder). Yes the AR trolls come on here just to start breeder bashing too.

I really am laughing my butt off at your comment about whom you are dealing with. You really have no clue as to how I breed and quite frankly it's none of your business! As I said, MYOB! If you see actual cruelty, neglect or abuse, report. Having a number of dogs and breeding them in itself is not abuse nor is making money.

Is there a shut off button on you ??

Yeah it's called go away. Truth and reason always overcomes, that's why all my questions to you. You don't want to hear it though. You'd rather sit on your high horse and dictate to breeders who and how they should breed, eventhough you've admitted you're not even a breeder! Hopefully others will understand where I'm coming from and where I'm going with all the questions to you. You obviously are brainwashed by the AR way of thinking and don't understand the implications of restricting and judging breeders. You'll see that derogatory, breeder hate slur that you use to describe larger volume breeders and support any bill that says it will stop that type of breeder without understanding the consequences and how it will also affected smaller breeders.

I have been raising Labradors and breeding a few litters a year for about 10 years, and in that time I haven't made much money doing it. When all is said and done I'm closer to being in the red. I love my dogs, and I think that I do things the right way. With that being said, if I could make money doing something that I love, then more power too me..... I just haven't figured out how to be that evil breeder that makes a profit....

This is a useless waste of bandwith, you all need to just shut the hell up and mind your own business and those of you even answering this ridiculous question your just giving the OP what she/he wanted

My answer to the OP is that as long as you are sure that your puppies/dogs are not ending up in shelters, go ahead and breed as many healthy, happy dogs as you want.

I do rescue but I also breed on occasion. And I get the sour faces when I do breed. But my response to people is that some families want a purebred at the end of their leash and that is their right. But I know where my Lab puppies are, heck, I know where all my rescued mixie-mutts are!!

What is happening in the shelters is not because of responsible breeding. It is a product of our throwaway, uncommitted, self absorbed society. We don't commit to our animals until they are old and gone, we throw our animals away for the next flavor of the month, we don't teach our children the value of a life, we fall apart when things get too difficult and we think nothing of using an animal for fun and then tossing it aside when it's no longer needed!

I, for one, wish that we could get in the business of some of these jerks who dump dogs in shelters the way we get in the business of breeders. Like people who adopt a puppy on Friday afternoon to occupy the kids and then return it on Monday because everyone has to head back to work or school, people who dump 14 year old Champ at the back of the shelter (knowing full well he will never get adopted!!!!) and walk around to the front of the shelter and into the kennels to pick up another dog, people who habitually drop litters of puppies off but never get reprimanded for not spaying or neutering their roaming dog, and on and on.........

It's a sad situation and I don't have an answer but as long as we, the keepers of this wonderful breed, set a good example then that's all we really can do until we go back to a nation with a conscience!

people assume you can't have quality and quantity…some breeders do high quantity and high quality and do a fabulous job. Do well in the show ring, find FABULOUS homes for their pups, and OMG, they make money…GASP! Maybe you are just upset about the money.

If dogs are well taken care of, health clearances, kennel is an exceptional environment, only exceptional homes accepted for pups, and I might imagine people are searching for professional kennels. Leave it be.
Demand for purebred dogs is at an all time high. Kennels who can and do put out GOOD quality labs will be more and more sought after as the years go by and PETA and other AR get their way.


Sounds like a troll

It's awesome you do rescue, I rescue the seniors that no body wants. I figure if they have been on this earth for that many yrs. they deserve to die with dignity, not at some shelter because someone passed away or didn't want to deal with the accidents that come with age. I just adore the seniors.

But my question on this forum derived from a friend that just quit working for a huge Lab kennel. And when I say huge, with all their off property kennels this person has Aprox 30 to 40 females alone, breeding left and right. Twice a yr pretty much to to each female. Yes they health test. However, puppies in and out like park central. I think she said they have bred probably over 150 so far in the last six months. She said the conditions were not all that great. But passable by dept of AG standards.
This persons ad claims state of the art kennel, swimming pools, every outdoor pen shaded. Inside heated runs, that had never been turned on in three yrs until they started working. All bullcrap. Just a lot of smoke and mirrors. She told me her spirit was so crushed by the things she saw. So I just had to ask. How many was too many. Coming off such a hard cold winter. Dogs on top of dogs. She said it was just horrible. The swimming pools were the old cow troffs that turned dark green with alge. Advertising she spends most of her time with her dogs. Oh my gosh, barely did the workers see her out in the kennel. Which was a few hundred yards from her home. So it sucked for my friend, and I can just imagine how much it sucked for the dogs. Anyway, glad you do rescue. Props ;)

150 bred meaning 150 puppies. Not females

sounds like "friend" just has an ax to grind…take your lies elsewhere. This is a forum where we discuss things that are worth our time rather than trumping up ways to bash breeders. Anyone who has an ax to grind will say anything to make a breeder look bad.

Not buying it.

I doubt they have an axe to grind, I will ask her who these people are, maybe they are ethical, let us All be the judge. That way you can stop throwing daggers in the wrong direction. Put it all to rest. If they are reputable, then so be it. If so, I will retract everything I had heard.

That's funny…I know of a breeder who just had to let a kennel worker go recently and this OP seems to know the "exact" details of that kennel "supposedly" …hmmmmm….sounds like someone has an ax to grind, got let go, and suddenly the kennel they worked in is demonized now that they are "gone"…sounds like a good opportunity to "get back" at a breeder they are mad at because things didn't work out. Timing is suspicious.

The facts about THAT kennel, I happen to know...OP is is making accusations to make them look bad. Sour grapes?
BUT…if its the kennel i suspect... They are amazing. Great staff, great kennel, great dogs. Great handler, great show wins. She has a great "team" in that kennel.

I think the OP should also check their numbers…sounds like they like to double everything (# of pups). And trying to make "c0-owners' sound like that's a bad word. Breeders do that all the time.
And then OP makes everything seem "oh, so awful." And them jumps on the bandwagon of a past post…yeah, real classy...

And they should also check world renown, Dr. Hutchinson's recommendation of breeding young dogs while younger back to back with one off, and retire EARLY…trying to be the breeder? Are you a breeder?…doubt that. Disgruntled formal employee…wow, quite likely.


I think we found our troll..

Well well, as they start to crawl out of the woodwork. this person wasn't let go. They quit. And very well should have. The conditions were horrible. And we aren't really talking about young dogs being bred now are we. So unless you know exactly what you are talking about. I'd step back a few feet. Careful who you are standing for. It can be a bit deceiving from the outside looking in. However the little character of the head spinning is right on the money. Good people, reputable handlers, and even workers can be easily deceived. I know my friend was.

Lots of people who are "let go" report to others they 'quit"…very common…and this case, truth.
This one's obvious.
I suspect the one "let go" is posting through a friend as a...

TROLL!!

dear OP….dear "ax to grind"


the adjectives are getting more "desperate"


"horrible"

hardly.

now can we get back to our forum…what a waste of time

sounds like good breeders with good dogs, good handlers and good business and team let "bad worker" go…think OP is the one in the spotlight. Funny how just the person let go is the one who thinks everyone else is fooled.


oh brother

I don't know which large( commercial) breeder you are speaking of. Puppy mills can get dressed up and have pretty web sites, but still be puppy mills. One instance e recently came to my knowledge when a family inquired about a puppy from one of these high volume breeders. Went to see the puppies and all seemed great until they asked to see the mother of the litter. The answer was no and they ended up losing their sizable deposit over it because they walked away from taking the puppy based on the fact they were refused to be allowed to see the puppy's mother. Clean? Well fed? In compliance with AKC and other governing bodies? Yes. Still a puppy mill. These people did the right thing by walking away, but the " breeder" in question still made a nice amount of money on them. Unethical? Absolutely.

Your right about that. Walking away was probably the best move. I heard of a fairly large commercial kennel that at times the new puppy owners were shown the wrong stud dog just to appease them. So they thought the stud was on property when they really weren't. People see what they want to see. Kind of sad really that one has to go there.

There always will be unscrupulous people in all walks of life. Yes, there are good breeders and bad breeders, but just because they don't live up to your standard doesn't necessarily make them bad.

Stereotyping and making blanket statements about larger volume breeders without having any first hand knowledge is wrong. Getting your information from a possibly "disgruntled" employee who may also subscribe to the AR agenda or believe dogs shouldn't live in kennels is also not an accurate way to portray these breeders. Some may have state of the art facilities or older facilities, it doesn't make it wrong or illegal, especially if these kennels are inspected regularly by the USDA or local animal agencies.

These are also dogs. They don't mind living in kennels as long as they have other dogs around them to socialize with. As long as their needs are being met, it's not a sin to keep dogs in kennel situations. The early games keepers and breeders kept large number of breeding dogs and had large kennels. If not for them, we may not have the breed as we know it. It hasn't been until more recent times that we've begun to "humanize" our dogs and bring them in to sleep inside.

I happen to enjoy the company of my dogs and have 4 dogs that sleep in my bed, but I make no mistake that these are still dogs and not "furkids" or "four-legged" humans. They aren't and they are perfectly happy either on my bed, in their crate or in the kennel (bitches in heat or when I go to shows). They are not unhappy or neglected or abused by staying outside.

Bottom line is we need to stop throwing around that derogatory, breeder hate slur and stop being so judgmental of each other. Just because another breeder breeds differently than you does not make them bad, irresponsible or wrong. We have to stop our fighting and band together to fight the AR threat to all of our breeding programs, big or small. Look at the overall picture, drop the stereotypes and open your mind to people who do things differently than you. Who are we to judge?

I'm not going to jump in here and go down the list of what I think is intellectually dishonest in this whole discussion, except to say that people should be really careful about applying the term "puppy mill" to breeders just because they fail to meet someone's arbitrary definition based on numbers. If you want to see what really qualifies as a puppy mill, watch this. But be forewarned - it is extremely upsetting, very graphic, and should NOT be watched where there is even the remotest chance that children may see it. I hope you learn a little about the pitfalls of painting with too broad a brush.

http://www.caps-web.org/component/k2/item/140?Itemid=269

Oh... one more thing. Not to be nitpicky or anything (and of course I will be) the title of this thread should probably be "...too many" and not "...two many".

The 1st thing I noticed. I figured it was a joke so realize others may have too.

O my Lord Gregg. I never should have watched it. U warned us. I am ill from it. Anyone who watched it I would be surprised if they didn't loose their last meal.

The ogre woman was charged with only 9 felonies. Shouldn't ea. dog be considered a victim? They didn't take 1,000 dogs away.

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/puppy-miller-kathy-bauck-charged-with-abuse-torture-will-keep-1000-dogs

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/more-on-kathy-bauck-mn-puppy-miller-charged-with-9-felonies-video

There are different kinds a puppy mills. That was a puppy mill at it's worst. U can't give the rite amount of love to 1,000 or 100 dogs as u can to 6 or 12 for an example. Would mine or your dogs enjoy life the same in larger situations? I know mine wouldnt.You are fooling yourself if you think your few dogs would be as happy as they are now if sent to live with a kennel full of dog. That's all I have to say.

What a waste of time. Almost sounds like someone going back and forth with themselves just to make some points. They didn't. Selling puppys just to build you a house is wrong. Many, many litters of so, so dogs is wrong. And your name goes out so quickly that you are doing it. Sad for our breed.

Every reputable breeder I've ever dealt with only has one or two litters a year so they can get a keeper puppy to improve their existing line.

I've been following this forum for a decade and what I've read and heard is remarkable in some cases. It is also not fair or true in some of the answers you have received.

Never take too much from Forum "breeders" as the gospel. The best breeders have little time to spend typing replies. They are cleaning their kennels, working their dogs or raising a litter properly.

Sadly those who say commercial breeders are not "puppy mills" are wrong. yes every mill has different sanitary conditions. Yet it does not change the fact that anyone breeding 150 litters a year is anything but a puppy miller.

Now the real money is made when you get a great reputation and you get a "Stud Dog" that everyones wants to stamp their line with its features. That takes years and decades to do. Are "Stud Dog" owners millers because they sell the sperm of a great dog? No.

Some of the people telling you Commercial Breeders are not puppy mills, are they same people telling you the "Show" Labrador still looks like a Labrador. The people who judge shows and are leaders in the Breed Clubs are the very people who are giving you a hard time.

All breeders are not reputable, especially some of the ones who post on Wiscoy or other forums. The same ones who post here have sold their souls to the Silver breeders too.

Get to know a breeder who is local to you, and get recommendations from family or friends. A web site does not make a good breeder. Nor do their comments on Wiscoy.

So it's ok to pimp out your stud dog and make money off of them, but not by breeding a larger volume of puppies to do so? Where do all those litters of puppies go sired by your stud dog?

As for your name, I am assuming that is 'the' Arnold? You do realize his owner has a large volume of dogs right? They live in a barn with luxurious paddacks and stalls to run, but they are all not house dogs. There is nothing wrong with this either. But rarely do successful kennels keep only a handful of dogs. Many must breed in larger volume in order to have more puppies to select from to get those truly exceptional dogs.

To all you folks who think that to reputable to have to follow the elitist way of breeding and that is only 1 to 2 litters a year, keep all your dogs in the house, have only a limited number of dogs yada, yada, yada how do you think one builds a recognized kennel style from that? And do you think those who breed in volume don't care about their dogs only the money? You should be ashamed of yourselves. There are many people who have large volumes of dogs who take excellent care of them.

As MYOB states, just because people breed differently than you doesn't make them wrong.

You suspect wrong. This person walked away. Wasn't let go, wasn't fired. Maybe we aren't talking about the same kennel. It ethically wasn't their cup of tea, hey, it happens. You really can't see what's going on in any given situation until you end up right in the middle of it. And I am actually catching flack from my friend trying to defend them. But as a defender of the animals who have no voice. Who are really just the vessel in all of this. It is sad. There is not a thing wrong with making money in life. But when it is done on the backs of helpless animals, who are only put on this earth to please. And one gives nothing back to them in return. It just isn't right. I'm not talking about all breeders, obviously. I am however talking about the selfish, self centered people who portray themseves as something they are not. And do it in such a way that a good percentage of the outsiders looking in cant see it. I think most on this forum know who I am talking about. But we can't just whisper when they walk by and say, their the ones. Or just turn a blind eye to the obvious. If one truly adores their breed. You need to stand up for them in any way you can. Not sure what the answer is, I'm sure I approached this in the worst way possible. But if it exposes one bad breeder. Opening someone else's eyes to it. Then I certainly can't apologize for that, is it not our goal in life to protect what is closest to us? What we pride ourselves on. If Labs are our life and we truly adore the gifts that have been given us. We need to protect them in any way we can. My friend thought they were doing the right thing. However found out different. That if you look directly into a labs eyes. They will tell a story. A window directly into their soul. A gentle giant put on this earth to please. Enough said, I think I got my point across

Thanks for outting yourself as an animal rights troll. The above is the mental illness that drives them to believe they must speak for our animals. YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR MY ANIMALS. They do not need a warped, humanistic voice to speak for them. Give back? What does an animal really want? Food, security, necessary veterinary care and companionship (whether human or animal). They don't need to you to tell others how neglected or abused you think they are because they aren't be treated according to your warp sense of animal husbandry, of which you've already admitted to not even being a breeder. You have no clue the blood, sweat and tears most breeders (regardless of size or quality) put into their dogs. You've been brainwashed and watched/seen too many of the propaganda videos and photos put out by the Animal Rights Groups to make you think these animals need your voice. My dogs have a voice. They tell me what they want, when they want it. I am enslaved to caring for them. I spend thousands a year on vet care, food, shows, etc. If I make some money by having a few extra litters, THAT'S MY RIGHT and it doesn't mean my dogs are suffering from it.

Get a grip on life lady, these are dogs, not your furbabies!

How would you possibly know what your dogs want. Your to busy rolling around in your closed minded opinions on who people are or are not. Wrong again dimwit. Not an AR Troll. I've not seen one video or read a single book regarding AR. I support no cause. But I do suggest you get a life and stop blaming others for your obvious guilt on perhaps spitting out too many litters. Your a joke. And if your dogs could speak. They would be begging to free them from your greedy little hands. Are you one of those commercial breeders?? Comes n, share with us on much you really care

Broker's are also something we don't expose a lot. They farm out their puppy litters to be raised for sales to large amounts of customers. Going to pet Stores and those who sell in Newspaper adds.

Dog showing is a hobby for those who love a breed of dogs. Yes, ethics are involved. But everyone interprets that differently.

One large commercial breeder actually has God on her side and has written a book proving it. To her you will never convince making money is a bad thing.

Maybe genetics is everything and numbers of pups sold each year don't matter. But when your pup gets sick and you need help from the breeder are they there for you?

Yes, you can make large sums of money breeding dogs. The same breeders even win at Potomac so the dogs look good to judges. But to me it is different being in the breed for the love of the breed, vs making a living off of it.

Buyers do your homework. There are wolves who pose as reputable breeders.

How do I know what my dogs want or need? Well after about 30 some odd years of experience raising dogs, showing dogs (multiple specialty winners), training dogs, obtaining multiple show and performance titles, studying dog behavior, nutrition and medical, well I pretty much know a hell of lot more than you! If I don't know what my dogs want by now, I should just get out, but you know what? I do know. I do consider myself a bit of expert on dogs after all those years and study and knowledge and experience. It's obvious by your post you know NOTHING! Why the hell would I want you to be my dog's voice then? I know when my dogs are happy, I know when they are ill and need care (to the tune of thousands a years), and I know how to raise them to be healthy adults.

You don't have to read anything books from the AR Groups (I have though so I also know the type of mindset). It's their mantra, the language they use, their way of thinking about animals needing a voice or to be free from the tortures of man, their propaganda photos and videos they use to emotionally manipulate animal lovers to act out against people who enjoy animals without any actual context or proof of wrong doing. Those are things that you are displaying in the language you use in your posts.

Guilt, nope no guilt at all. Closed minded? Do you see me painting all breeders with same broad brush? Do you see me stereotyping and making blanket statements about them? Do you see me casting judgment on them? Do you see me calling them names and labeling them? You're the one who is doing that. You're projecting as you're the one with the closed mind. We as breeders need to open our minds and stop being so catty and gossipy about those we don't agree with but aren't necessarily doing anything wrong. Unless you visit their property personally and see FIRSTHAND how they care for their dogs, you have no right to judge them PERIOD!

As for the Broker's [sic] comment, so what? The statistics show that when a person pays good money for a dog, they will take care of it. The statistic also show that puppies obtained from Pet Stores are no less unhealthy than those obtained from other sources. They are also show that they are not surrendered to shelters any more than breeder dogs are (less than 5%). It is time to look at the stats, look at the bigger picture and drop the stereotypes and blanket statements!

This is the most stupid bunch of notes. One person giving her opinion and trying to run down others. Think this person needs to get out of Labradors or get her a few that keep her busy.

Sheesh lady you really need to do more research and stop watching all those emotionally manipulative animal rights porn flicks.

Also shows what you know about breeding, as someone else pointed out, leading Animal Repro Vet, Dr. Hutch recommends breeding dogs at a younger age and back to back. Do you really think that a female dog in heat will say, no not this time? If she was on the street, she'd be begging to bred EVERY heat! Again, if you knew anything about dog breeding, you'd know this.

Do you know that many commercial breeders are now doing health testing? That many have indoor/outdoor runs, on concrete and grass? Where are all your statistics to show how unhealthy these animals are? Oh that's right there aren't any! Simple business logic would dictate that you wouldn't stay in business very long if all you sold were sick animals.

Putting words in my mouth? I never said we need to sale to pet stores. Nor did I say it was reputable or not. I was simply pointing out that there are no statistics showing a higher number of dogs from Pet Stores who end up sick than those obtained elsewhere. I've read numerous testimonials from different Pet Store sights. Very happy customers, healthy dogs. Now that's not were I recommend a person buy a puppy from, but many do and many are quite happy with their choice. But as for me, I prefer to sell directly to the public and screen my homes. That's *MY* choice. I'm not going to tell other's how to sell their puppies though, that's their choice! It's not necessarily wrong. If we all had the same set of ethics and morals, we'd all be vegans and only see the animals from a far. No pets, no food, no hunting, no fishing...

Too bad there isn't a way to hide threads.... like hiding posts or deleting them from your timeline in Facebook. This one would be a great place to start

...not clicking on the thread Greg. If you don't like it don't click on it, no one is forcing you to read it.

This thread isn't worth it's bandwidth.

But don't you see? This is like watching a train wreck...

I think asking a question which comes from concern for dogs is certainly appropriate. It would seem that MYOB may be the one making sweeping generalizations and may be more concerned that others don't judge her behavior than with the dogs.

We all need to be careful about being too quick to judge but also we all need to put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with making a little money (although I certainly can't figure out how to do that by breeding dogs). There is nothing wrong with being proud of "wins" and "titles". But if your pocketbook is more important than the welfare of your dogs or the breed in general, or if your self-worth is defined by how many ribbons you win, I am not sure you can call yourself an ethical breeder.

Response to "to MYOB" above - A very thoughtful and intelligent response. It is awfully easy to figure out who MYOB is, it is the same spiel every single time. Constantly looking for acceptance where it will never exist, always blaming the AR groups in hopes of gaining acceptance. Trying to justify what reputable breeders detest by fear intimidation tactics, it really is tiring.