I would add that you might not want to trust an echo done before 2. I bred to a well known stud who had an echo done at just under a year, and I was sorry...
It may have come through the bitch's side, but let me remind that with TVD it is pretty much considered a dominant trait passed only from one parent.
I do think it should be treated much like Hip/Elbow clearances as there are other factors that may contribute to the expression of the disease even if the dog is clear and still produces it. There are certain lines that I know of that produce higher incidences of orthopedic problems just as there are certain lines that produce more TVD.
"" There are only a few lines or dogs left that don't go back to the original TVD producers from the mid 1990's to our knowlege. Try not to see those lines close up or more then once the you might be using. Some breeders not only line breed them but we've seen them 3x 4x 5x or more in a 4 to 6 generation pedigree. ""
This is all well, fine and good to say, but for those of us new to the breed (and I say that with 13 years in). Not all of us live in an area that has a lot of Lab people in it, and it is hard to get a mentor in this breed. Without an oldtimer how do we find these lines out??? Everyone has the "stuck in the past, and it never happens to me" attitude, so unless you have an in with an oldtimer there is no way to know. This has been beaten over the head with a stick, heck with the stick... with a redwood tree. And yet, here we remain all locked up tight lipped instead of allowing those newer to the breed the same information to aid in breeding healthy dogs.
Why won't people share these names? I have a TVD bitch out of a big winning US stud dog, so I have first hand experience that I'd rather have not had, but no one shares.....
Here - here to Newbie, I had a similar thought. It can be difficult to admit something comes from your lines or someone else's lines, as I notice Newbie didn't mention her stud dog. It can be a sensitive area and no one likes to be singled out or feel blamed. Curiosity abounds, are these dogs in my lines. Where can one fine out this information, without raising hackles, when one does not have an "in" or a mentor. There is the OFA< CERF registry for other disorders - what of the non registered disorders? Thank you.
I contacted the breeder I bought her from and they were awesome to work through this with. I also contacted the stud dog owner and got absolutely nothing from her. If you gave me an email addy I would send you the names that I have been told to watch out for. The list that I have is relatively short, but can be built on while looking into your pedigrees.
I'm interested in knowing too if you are willing. I am happy to share what I know. I lost an 8 week old puppy to TVD a couple of years ago and I have her littermate who also has TVD.
I also unfortunately produced a TVD puppy who sadly passed before he was 4 months old. Needless to say I want to try to avoid going through this again if at all possible. I would like to have any info that is out there that anyone is willing to share to help me make better breeding decisions in the future. TIA
I also produced a TVD puppy. He lived until he was 6. Thank you for offering to share this knowledge. Me too--something I never want to go through again.
Please send me your information, too, please. I have a friend who lost a lovely youngster to TVD and I want to avoid having to go through that heartbreak if I possibly can. Thank you for being honest.
"I contacted the breeder I bought her from and they were awesome to work through this with. I also contacted the stud dog owner and got absolutely nothing from her. If you gave me an email addy I would send you the names that I have been told to watch out for. The list that I have is relatively short, but can be built on while looking into your pedigrees."
I would be interested in knowing your girl's pedigree. I have a TVD dog, and have been collecting pedigrees of other dogs with TVD ever since getting her. I am willing to share my dog's pedigree. My email address is below.
If you would be willing to share your information I would be forever grateful.
I am getting ready to do a breeding and want to be as cautious as possible what lines I am breeding to. I only have a litter every 2 to 3 years and so far I have not seen TVD thank God. I do as much pedigree research as I'm capable of and echo Doppler all of my dogs. Its all I can do without a test yet available.
Thank you for your kindness and assistance. I am sorry for all you both have been through.
while it looks like a dominate with incomplete penetrance disease, which means that it only takes one and while it also seems like that a dog can carry the disease and still have a clear echo, isn't it time that we do something, before it ruins our breed? maybe it is time to have a registry for this. We're going to get deeper and deeper into this disease if we don't do something soon.........makes our other diseases look fairly lame.........what a shame it is. it wasn't too long ago that there only seemed to be one dog out there who had it and produced it.......those of us who continue to breed dogs who produce this multiple times should hand their heads..........
I contacted the breeder I bought her from and they were awesome to work through this with. I also contacted the stud dog owner and got absolutely nothing from her. If you gave me an email addy I would send you the names that I have been told to watch out for. The list that I have is relatively short, but can be built on while looking into your pedigrees.
No one ever gives out names. Maybe an anonymous pedigree would be better, post a pedigree with the dog's name blackened out, or if you must, leave out the sire and dam too. Not sharing information is not helping, anyone, yet the problems are getting more numerous. We know you can't be certain where it came from but can't we have a look at the pedigrees? The OP wants names and they won't open up either. , ridiculous.
Controlling TVD in Labradors
TVD is an inherited condition, making good breeding decisions is crucial in the fight to reduce the prevalence of TVD in Labrador Retrievers. Dogs that are affected should not be used for breeding. Future breedings of their sire and dam to each other also should not be repeated. Unfortunately, clinical signs of TVD often do not appear until after an afflicted dog is of breeding age, so owners may unknowingly breed a dog bearing the genetic marker for TVD.
The best way to avoid this is to have any Labrador that is being considered for breeding purposes screened for the condition by ultrasound (echocardiogram) performed by a veterinary cardiologist. Other ways to help reduce the incidence within the Labrador breed are by communicating with new owners about the condition and alerting owners of sires and dams and littermates of dogs who are identified with TVD, as well as those who are researching heart condition in canines
Per the LRC website, the bottom line in helping to control TVD:
Communication and echocardiogram
Controlling TVD in Labradors
TVD is an inherited condition, making good breeding decisions is crucial in the fight to reduce the prevalence of TVD in Labrador Retrievers. Dogs that are affected should not be used for breeding. Future breedings of their sire and dam to each other also should not be repeated. Unfortunately, clinical signs of TVD often do not appear until after an afflicted dog is of breeding age, so owners may unknowingly breed a dog bearing the genetic marker for TVD.
The best way to avoid this is to have any Labrador that is being considered for breeding purposes screened for the condition by ultrasound (echocardiogram) performed by a veterinary cardiologist. Other ways to help reduce the incidence within the Labrador breed are by communicating with new owners about the condition and alerting owners of sires and dams and littermates of dogs who are identified with TVD, as well as those who are researching heart condition in canines
Per the LRC website, the bottom line in helping to control TVD:
Communication and echocardiogram
This is excellent, I am glad to se they took a stance on recommending Echo's.
I am replying to an early post in this threat because I see an email address containing the name Herman. I have nothing to do with that post. While I appreciate your frustration in trying to breed around this particular health problem, I hope this thread does not escalate into annonymous posters naming suspected carrier pedigrees.
"A false or erroneous accusation can ruin a stud dog or damage a breeder's reputation. Just because posting is annonymous does not mean information will be true. On the contrary, the source of the information should be as important to us as the topic itself."
I am so angry I can barely type this. Apparently it is okay for breeders to stand their dogs at stud even though they have produced TVD in multiple litters. And for those of us too stupid to use them - because no one will openly talk about TVD - just like with PRA in the past - we should keep our mouths shut. Since I bred to a certain dog and got TVD, I have learned that at least some people on the east coast knew not to use him, because, in fact, he is producing TVD. I'm sure those people knew because one of their friend bred to him and got TVD too. My litter wasn't the first and certainly won't be the last. Often times, when you have a very sensitive issue like this, rumors are your only source of information. How many reputable breeders have we seen pull their stud dogs because they are producing TVD? I'm certainly not aware of any recently...
Anonymous doesn't mean the information is false. Police agencies have been solving crimes using anonymous tips for years.
It is obvious you are interested in this topic since you checked the e-mail addresses of the earlier posts. Why did you remove your post that I responded to? No one has posted anything about any particular dogs but there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to talk with each other. Those of us without well known kennels or top stud dogs have a right to know.
TVD is like a violent crime that happens in broad daylight in a highly populated area and somehow there are no witnesses. Some people are afraid to speak up, some people have too much to lose, some people weren't paying attention and finally others saw or heard just a little. The last group is the only one likely to speak up - either because they are naive as to what's at stake or they are brave. We need some brave souls when it comes to TVD.
There is no honest and open discussion about TVD. That is the problem.
Is TVD a concern in the vast majority of today's pedigrees? I'm not trying to open a can of worms, just asking opinions. Last year I produced my first TVD puppy (who will be fine -- not a death sentence and no meds) yet I have four generations of cleared echoes behind the pup. Is TVD now like hip and elbow dysplasia where you do your best but there are no guarantees, even after years of passing clearances?
Second question: Are there any well used stud dogs who haven't produced TVD? Yes, I know the bitch is implicated too but if there's a clear stud line with generations of healthy hearts and no TVD, please let me know.
Please do not think I'm trying to start trouble; I'm genuinely concerned about where to go from here. I'm hoping someone has more knowledge than I do --- especially since a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and I admit to having little knowledge about this.
Any help will be appreciated, but please do not post flames. I've been hesitating about posting because I know how volatile this list can get, and this situation is difficult enough without being raked over the coals. I'm not pointing fingers, nor do I want anyone else to. We're all in this together and the more we help one another, the better off our Labs will be.
I believe we're all looking for the same as you are. Unfortunately, not enough breeders are doing echo Dopplers and if a dog passes their auscultation, later fails their echo w/ mild TVD, they ride on the initial auscultation never reporting the failed echo on their website or OFA. Obviously, not everyone does that, but too many do.Scary for bitch owners!
There is no honest and open discussion about TVD. That is the problem.
I understand your frustration. You are where I was in 2010. That frustration is why I started a Facebook group, TVD in Labrador Retrievers, for open, honest, and non-inflammatory discussions about TVD. You're welcome to come join us.
I have some names to share too with you newbie if you'd share yours. Or anyone else that has a TVD dog that emails I'll share what I know. I agree that there is no way we are going to get anywhere if we all keep quiet.
One thought is that there is already a registry that allows lists of an affected, such as one that you bred, at no charge: the OFA cardiac listing. I just looked and there are only NINE Labs that come up on a search as having been affected by an abnormal heart of any kind, and only 0.3 percent are listed in the statistics, which should include any dogs whose results are to be secret except to the researchers. Some had pedigrees I had been told to avoid, no matter how much I like their get, but others were a surprise. One was a field line, which pretty much negates the thought that cardiac issues are only in show lines .Labs are Labs. We can start by owning up to our own issues and allowing release of abnormal results with our initials. I am not ready to advocate broadcasting other people's news: that can be full of false rumors and meanness. I also realize that congenital defects can be one offs, not TVD, but it is a start. At least submit for statistical purposes, so the cardiologists know, even if you do not allow release on the database to the general public! OFA states that,
"Affected Animals, Statistical Data Submission and Resubmissions at No Charge"
I am very frustrated by people thinking they are safe using echo clear dogs.
There are many stud dogs out there producing TVD. Their owners know this and continue to place them at stud. These stud dogs have produced MULTIPLE puppies with different bitches and bloodlines but they are popular and make their owners big money. . One I know carries an echo clear status but after research, he and his sire have produced over 8 tvd puppies by various bitch lines.
Being "echo clear" MEANS NOTHING!!!!
By echoing we only weed out the affected.
Actually, being ECHO clear means the dog is not affected, which does mean SOMETHING. There are many heritable issues for which we do not have a definitive test to know whether or not the offspring will be affected. It is no different than being ACVO Clear for eyes - a clear dog can still produce cataracts. A dog that has never seizured can still produce seizures. A dog with OFA Excellent hips can still produce hip dysplasia. But the odds are lower than if the dog is affected or if there are affected dogs throughout the pedigree. A "clearance" is merely a piece of information; it is not a license to breed. We try to make the best decisions we can given the information we have available. I would be far more concerned about a litter bred out of dogs on prelims/no clearances (giving none of the heritable issues that often start to appear around age 2 time to present) than one bred out of "cleared" parents where there is solid familial history.
The more echoes done, the better the chance of this disease not hitting breeders over the head. I am working on doing 4th generation echoes on my bitch line which makes me and the stud dog owners more comfortable. Current stud i used is 3rd generation echoe clear. The chances becom slimmer the more generations cleared by ecoes, not auscultation as a wise woman told me in the middle 2000's
We each do what we want and live with the consequences.
May I also get a copy of the list.
I am getting ready to breed my first litter and I am trying to make the best decision I can make for her future.
She finished her championship quite easily. Thankfully, she has passed all known clearances, echo included.
I received at least half a dozen emails asking about the "list", I don't know whether some people thought I was the OP, or the list maker, or who they thought I was, but I only ever offered to share my affected girl's pedigree.
Don't know why people think it can be boiled down to a list.
(not intended for any one person)
I completely understand the magnitude of TVD being a real problem in this breed but like others have stated all we have to go by are assumptions. The fact is without a test all we are doing "guessing" and causing hysteria. Look at how many people have asked for a list in this thread. A list based on no real fact. I understand that pedigree research is a major part of trying to understand this but again we have no real facts to base our fears on.
My question is how much money is needed for funding research? What is the direction and progression for current research? And what else is there that we can do to help find the facts we are looking for? As far as funding I'm not sure why collectively we in the breed aren't donating? Myself included. Anyone have a link to help clear up some of my questions.