I think you mean "twizzle" at the end of the tail. BTW, take a look at the Spotlight Dogs -- great examples of what I think is a correct tail.

I have heard a billion times that the hallmarks of the breed are head, coat and tail. I also know that many, if not most, of the labs I see do not have what I would call correct heads or coats. I don't think tails are as bad but I see many incorrect tails as well.

Having said that, I think short coupling should be more a hallmark of the breed than head, coat, and tail. Overall proportion between height and length is a critical component of what it means to be a Labrador.

Moderation in substance and angulation should also be hallmarks of the breed.

This is exactly why I never come to the forum any more. The original post was meant to discuss a certain part of the labrador and yet it has broken out into verbal sparring with certain cowardly individuals that won't post their names, trying to invoke their opinions on everyone else. It is like an argument for argument's sake.

Say what you want about me and my opinions because that's all they are...my opinions and I won't be on here to care what anyone else thinks after I post this.

Short-coupled...what does that mean? How many have seen short-coupled labradors that move so wide in the front that you could drive a tractor trailer through their front legs.

Whether you are judging cattle, swine, dogs, horses, whatever...it's all about balance and it's all about what the animal was bred to do.

To me, a strong otter tail gives the labrador the rudder to steer it through the water. I've seen dogs as long as freight trains still be able to work just fine in the water.

While I'm not a complete tail fanatic...I do believe it is a hallmark of the breed.

I can take every word from the standard and make it fit my idea of a labrador but that doesn't make it right. To limit yourself to reading and studying just the standard is you're business. You miss out on people who have hundreds of years in labradors. I never said the whole dogs is not important nor that structurs and balance are not inmportant. You keep putting words in my mouth as I only made a comment on tails. I have tried to get you back to my original "joking" statement. Epiphany...some of the people on here are not worth my fat little fingers hard work. OH NO I changed my mind don't bother coming up to me at the next show you already know everything there is to know.

Again I am confused. If you never come to the forum any more, then how did you get involved in this topic? If you actually READ the original post, it specifically states that the poster does NOT want to discuss the tail. That is why I questioned the reason she posted in the first place. Why bring up a topic and say you are unwilling to discuss it? Maybe you understand her thinking because you have posted in a forum you say you never come to. I try to read posts carefully and consider them logically and both of you are very confusing.

The original post was not written in a manner to spark a conversation as it added nothing to a meaningful discussion. Actually the post was pretty derisive and I am not surprised what ensued from there. I really did not see any point to the original post because thoughtful discussion usually originates from a thoughtful (this being the key word) point of view and one was not offered.

"Miss out on people that have hundreds of years in Labradors"? That for some reason made me laugh out loud. If I was talking to them it would not be about a dog it would be to find out how the heck they got that old!!! LOL!!!!

Ahhh, only thoughtful discussions are allowed here...that I did not know. I didn't realize Jill had started this for serious minded folks only. I made a smart ass remark about tails because I thought the "ROTTIE HEAD" and agruing about coat. feet, and whatever else it is that you diagree with each other about was getting to be a joke. But don't worry I won't expect any of you brave souls to come up, SMILE and introduce yourselves.

Debbie, there is a reason why mentorship is at a minimum in this breed, and it is clearly defined in this thread. I say let them wallow in their ignorance, and allow the cream to rise to the top. Sad but true, one cannot teach the unteachable! Which is why you see the blind leading the blind on this forum, all the experience has left the building!

BRAVO!!! Now theres a great response!

Although I would love some ringside time with one who knows more than I, Debbie, you would not be my first choice. Because of the way you handled yourself on this thread, I would not seek help from someone like you. I do not know you and I am sure that you are a perfectly delightful, knowledgeable person.

But in order for clubs, sports, hobbies etc to continue, mentors and old timers of those clubs/hobbies etc need to be more welcoming, less judgmental, perhaps a little more respectful when delivering their vast experience to new people.

The snarky, disrespectful, sometimes downright childish exchanges in this thread would make me think twice before seeking someone such as yourself for information. And, you're right, you were not alone in those exchanges but...

Thank you for the information that you provided in this thread.

I have only been breeding for 25 years. But I think the issues with the thread have more to do with maturity, character, and intelligence rather than breeding experience.

Just read the stuff....

Which posters are commenting more on the issue and which posters are attacking people?

Which posters are providing reasoning that has more depth? Why do people think what they think? Are they really thinking at all or just parroting words or mindlessly protecting their clique mates?

If someone writes something you disagree with, then explain why you disagree with that. That is how we all learn. Maybe both of you can learn from each other.

But when someone doesn't like something someone writes about an issue, and then attacks that person as a way of discrediting what was written, then the readers have to ask if there is really any knowledge behind that opinion.

It is easy to fall into the trap of attacking back when someone attacks you. When this happens, then both posters lose credibility in my mind. But having said that, it is sometimes a good idea to look to see who is the instigator and who is defending themselves. Not that this lets the defender off the hook, s/he should have the self control not to get sucked down to that level.

Finally, it is OK to disagree. All opinions are not necessarily equal. All opinions are not necessarily right. Some are clearly wrong. But you can have two valid opinions that are of equal merit. Enjoy the different perspectives!

Instead of getting things on track like a real mentor would do, you elected to behave as childishly as everyone else - what about those actions would entice anyone to seek out your opinion at a show? Nothing posted thus far gives anyone a sense that your opinion has any merit over anyone else's ridiculous bickering. There ARE some great mentors out there but they don't behave like this.

Peggy,
As I am sure that you know, one can never assume that the lack of feathering and appearance of correctness is totally natural. A noted breeder-judge, whose dogs I like very much, once wrote an article on how to trim the partly wrapped tail and sort of braid the underside back in place. Hopefully that was used on dogs at a strange point in the coat cycle who normally had a fairly natural wrap, with just a litle line of brush, or dogs who had been force dried or lain funny while the ail was still wet. You can't take a flat coat or setter tail and wrap it really well, can you, after puppyhood? It is not the same as carving a whole poodle out of a pile of hair, but it is showtime as we know it. ("Coping" a dog appeared in the book Lassie Come Home, so this is not a new art, grooming for show.)

I have never claimed to be anyones mentor. I do voice my opinion and if you can't enjoy this hobby then by all means stay away from me. I do this to have a good time with my dogs. I make jokes, silly comments and just in general have fun. Honestly it isn't life or death to me. I just keep hoping labrador people will be as fun loving as their dogs.

How many times on this thread did you invite people to come ringside and introduce themselves so that you could explain your opinion of tails and what has gone wrong with them?? Mentor, ringside help, call it what you like, but you offered your knowledge. All I'm pointing out is that perhaps a bit less sarcasm would make people feel more at ease.

And when someone gets called out for their rude behavior on this Forum, the excuse is always, "well if you can't take it, get out of dogs/shows/breeding etc..." That's a bunch of crap!! Have respect for your fellow breeders/exhibitors/hunters and answer questions without sarcasm. No one on this Forum is any better than the next person, I don't care how long you've been breeding/showing/hunting!!!!

This is a venue for the exchange of ideas. People come here for help, support, news, updates and brags and not to be humiliated for asking a question or for giving an opinion. Because that's what all this is......just people's opinions!!!

And that's my opinion.

You are absolutely right, my opinions are just that. I deal with stupidity with sarcasm and jokes. I didn't realise I had to be absolutely serious. Now that I think about it I have no desire to be so serious that you aren't allowed to post an opinion without some "confused" poor soul asking if you are just wasting their time and space. Well if you can't figure that out my, my, my. So from now on I won't do either on here. Talk about crap, sure seems to be the theme on here, silvers are real, silvers are frauds, heads come from rotties, heards come from greyhounds. short coats, long coats, big feet, little feet, do you feed your puppies or let them starve to death...blah blah blah. I won't bother reading your crap either, so if you want to tell me how awful I am you'll have too email me privcately.

Maybe you shouldn't think about discussing opinions with others as dealing with stupidity???