I really wish someone would respond to my question. I understand why nobody did because it may seem like I was being trollish by using the phrase "embarrassment to the breed". That said, this is what some people are actually thinking. I believe that this situation, where highly qualified people are looking at these dogs and coming back with completely different evaluations, is frustratingly fascinating. We are not talking about a disagreement about whether a dog is 5 lbs overweight or not. We are talking about bitches who many would argue are 15+ lbs overweight and whose healthy weight should be closer to 65, or males who some would argue are 20 - 25+ lbs overweight and should be closer to 75. Yet another highly qualified lab person describes these same dogs as being at a healthy weight. This is a HUGE difference in perception. We are talking a difference of almost 25% of body weight. One person thinks the dog is "seriously obese" and the other describes the same dog as "all muscle". The difference can not just be attributed to bone and coat although that is clearly part of the explanation. How can this be?

When you say "looking at", you are only using your eyes. Of course, you will have different people giving a casual opinion. You cannot tell condition when a dog is in full coat without placing your hands on the dog and doing a good examination. Only then can you feel for ribs, shoulders, good musculature, etc.
This is a major problem with people criticising winning dogs, especially if they only look at photographs or video.
Would you be satisfied with a physical exam if the doctor stands back twenty feet when he tells you to say "ahhh"?

That is such a good point. You have to have your hands on the dog. I have a bitch that has been bred a couple of times and never tucked up. With coat and the fact she is broody people have commented that she is fat or asked if she is pg (pet people and when I've had her at hunt tests). I asked them to go over her and actually feel her muscle/conditioning and they have been very surprised. Even more surprised when she goes after the ducks :-)

Both Judge and Another Breeder make great points. That said, I could have and should have been more clear, but in the first of the two posts I made I did write that both observers put their hands on the dog.

Even considering bone and coat, and having the opportunity to put their hands on the dog, the two knowledgeable breeders come to completely and totally contradicting evaluations of the proper weight for a dog.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I once was with a group at a neighborhood party. One little girl was plump, putting it kindly. Her father, who is an MD commented on how cute she was and that he loved chubby children. My young sons were on a swim team at the YMCA and in great condition. I couldn't believe my ears.

Which club are you really talking negatively about, the LRC parent club, the LRCP or both and what is your exact point? You lost me half-way through what you posted. Are you annoyed at both venues or just 1? Which of the 2 are you upset with and why? You brought both into your conversation with ambiguity. TIA for clarifying your post.

I am not talking negatively about either club. My point is that while the Potomac currently draws the largest breed entries, it is in no way a "National" Specialty. The National is more than just a conformation show (whereas Potomac is in reality only a breed show) and highlights the versatility of the breed. I think it is sad that some of the LRC's actions has caused people to talk about boycotting a unique event that is special and brings a broader group of the Labrador community together.

In response to the comment about American vs. foreign judging at the Potomac. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Best of Breed at the Potomac, as judged by Mrs. Huntzinger, the same dog that was Best Veteran as judged by Ms. Charlton and Mr. Masia? Just sayin'.....

While I respect your opinion I have to disagree. The LRCP's spring show is my national and is the national of many other breeders and has been for a very long time.

If the only reason that you disagree is because they do not offer trials feel free to join the club and put one together. It's a week long show there is plenty of time. Volunteers are the problem. I'm sure the LRCP'S BOD would be happy to let you take this project on. Put your money where your mouth is so to speak. Shoot them an email.

The breeder's national is the LRC Potomac, just as the field person's national is the Master National. To say otherwise is somewhat ridiculous.

The LRC National falls somewhere in between with events appealing to a wide variety of competitors but I don't think you would EVER get a field person to say that the Master National is the same caliber as the LRC National.

You might want to learn the difference between a hunt test and a field trial.

At a hunt test, dogs are judged against a standard. At a field trial dogs are judged against each other. At a hunt test, every dog can pass if they meet the requirement. At a field trial, there is only ONE first place winner.

The Master National is for hunt test dogs and a noble accomplishment just to qualify. Field trial dogs can eventually earn their FC, which is a front end title equal to a CH.

Teacher- I am well versed in the difference between hunt tests & field trials, being a judge of hunt tests and having marshalled at many of both. You failed to grasp my point in that not one event is all things to all people. Nor does defining the diff between the two have anything to do with this conversation or my point. The difference between comparing the lrcp show to the lrc natl lies in that our LRC National is not revered by all as the epitome of competiton by those that specialize in whatever venue they choose to participate in at the highest level.

I do volunteer - for my own club. I live in the West and am not going to help put something together for an event that is ALWAYS in another time zone for a club that does not support anything outside its own local interests. I am very active in my local club. I also volunteer at the LRC National when it is in my time zone and put in a lot of hours to do so even though I am not a member of the LRC. I have been to the Potomac and appreciate it for what it is, but other than really large entries and the opportunity to see dogs I would not normally get to see in person, it is no different than any other breed specialty. They all have their own unique styles and themes, but they are all locally focused. The Potomac is not a celebration of the versatility of this breed and for people like myself who actively evaluate our dogs for both conformation and work ethic, it is nice to have a venue where one can see the dogs in multiple venues. Pretty is as pretty does, so to speak.

While I do not like the way the LRC has handled a lot of things, I do appreciate having a club that holds the working side of this breed with high importance. Given that many of the local breed clubs are finding it less and less important (holding basic WC's but not hunt tests, eliminating obedience from specialties, and not offering anything in the way of tracking or agility or anything else), I would expect a parent club to maintain the focus.

I think it is fine for people to see the Potomac as their version of the National - I have no interest in telling people what to do. I find it unfortunate but a reality that many people in this breed have no interest in or understanding of function while a whole other faction has no interest in form. But for me and others interested in the whole breed standard, I picture a National similar to the way the Golden Club does it, celebrating form and function, rotating the location so everyone has a chance to participate and help, etc.

I am also on the West Coast. I could be wrong, but I believe the only Labrador Club offering Hunt Tests each year is the Labrador Retriever Club of Southern California. They do 4 Junior, 4 Senior, and 2 Master tests, plus a Working Certificate Test on the Sunday, each year (April & October). There are very few "show dogs" running these tests. Some AKC CH's run the WC, but usually, that's the extent of it. This past Spring, there was definitely an increase in numbers at the Working Certificate Test. I hope that continues...

I'm not saying the show dogs have to run a Master level test, but it would be nice to see more of the dogs I see in the conformation ring at a Junior Hunt Test stake too.



Quoting: Too Bad
"I do volunteer - for my own club. I live in the West and am not going to help put something together for an event that is ALWAYS in another time zone for a club that does not support anything outside its own local interests. I am very active in my local club. I also volunteer at the LRC National when it is in my time zone and put in a lot of hours to do so even though I am not a member of the LRC. I have been to the Potomac and appreciate it for what it is, but other than really large entries and the opportunity to see dogs I would not normally get to see in person, it is no different than any other breed specialty. They all have their own unique styles and themes, but they are all locally focused. The Potomac is not a celebration of the versatility of this breed and for people like myself who actively evaluate our dogs for both conformation and work ethic, it is nice to have a venue where one can see the dogs in multiple venues. Pretty is as pretty does, so to speak.

While I do not like the way the LRC has handled a lot of things, I do appreciate having a club that holds the working side of this breed with high importance. Given that many of the local breed clubs are finding it less and less important (holding basic WC's but not hunt tests, eliminating obedience from specialties, and not offering anything in the way of tracking or agility or anything else), I would expect a parent club to maintain the focus.

I think it is fine for people to see the Potomac as their version of the National - I have no interest in telling people what to do. I find it unfortunate but a reality that many people in this breed have no interest in or understanding of function while a whole other faction has no interest in form. But for me and others interested in the whole breed standard, I picture a National similar to the way the Golden Club does it, celebrating form and function, rotating the location so everyone has a chance to participate and help, etc."

I believe that the Labrador Retriever Club of Greater Boston still holds hunt tests.

PSLRA offers 2 hunt tests each year for all 3 levels and there are show dogs (often including finished Champions) running in all 3 levels. PSLRA also offers a Show N Go (Obedience and Rally), 2 Agility Trials, 2 Obedience Trials, 2 Rally Trials, 2 Working Certificate tests, a Tracking Test, 2 Specialty Shows, a B Match (with Obedience and Rally) and training days every year. There are show dogs entered in all of these events. This is a very diverse, active club and an All Around Dog is central to its charter.

I think Rose City also offers a hunt test every July and a WC in the Spring.

There are not many clubs offering more than a specialty and a field event.

I do believe the National is the only club offering all of these events during their Specialty Week.

I agree. I have been to the National multiple times as well as the Potomac and I have to say, I do enjoy the National more. But I do multiple events with my dogs (who have been recipents of the Dogs for All Reasons and participated in The Challenge) It's also hard for me to get back to the Potomac as often as I would like, but I am due again.

PSLRA is another club that puts on hunt tests too.

Winnebago and LRC Potomac both have hunt tests. Huron River Supports (and runs the JH snd SH stakes) of a test as well.

My granddaughter is getting married on Sat, 10/11 so not going to be able to come. Not that I would have anyway but because I understand The Keystone LRC is going to be putting their heart and soul into this show not to mention $$$$ I am recommending everyone who boycotts send your club the equivalent of the entry fee or a small donation after the show. Spread the word so next year no one will get stuck with this dinosaur.