Thanks, Peggy, for explaining about the probability of modifying genes, which would explain the point of view of those who discount the EIC test because not all affected dogs collapse. We don't yet have a test for the modifying genes, and it is unlikely that there will be financial incentive to develop that test, I presume. Too bad.

Sally, I would worry about lawsuits or lemon law issues if one produces affected, collapsing dogs that one sells. Even adolescent pups have collapsed. The only other way around it if breeding an affected to a carrier would be testing all progeny, then keeping the carriers, and either euthanizing affected pups or giving them away with full disclosure. Ugh. It would be better to avoid that sad scenario, with the hit to one's reputation as well, as this is not a rare breed with no studs out there. If this carrier were the only stud dog out there, I could see culling the litter as a way forward, but I find it sad, distasteful and expensive at best, although better than selling them to the unsuspecting public. Even better: Breeding to a clear dog, one could have all pups who will be carriers and in another generation, possibly eliminate it from your lines, making it a nonissue for the future. Or one could take that clear grandpuppy to the carrier dog that you like so much now.

Isn't there a close, clear relative of his who is just as nice if he is from a good line with great depth of quality vertically and horizontally in the pedigree? I'd try to find that clear, close relative, maybe his sire, brother, or son. Then I'd plan a line breeding back to that carrier stud if the get, grandget, and other factors work well for that scenario. I do understand thinking outside the box while brainstorming, but it could be very sad if you do this breeding and get all affecteds, as the dice doesn't always fall as probability would suggest. How many have bred a yellow to a black carrying yellow, wanting a yellow girl, but gotten all blacks or all boys, because stuff happens. Good luck with your decisions, Sally.

I'm with "huh?", I'm definitely not part of a labrador community that you claim to be a part of.

I am more like my beloved breed, the Labrador Retriever. Generally speaking we are loyal, trustworthy, always willing to do what our Master asks of us. We are not snarky, sarcastic, or mean-spirited.

Unfortunately, there are always those wolves in sheep's (i.e. Labrador's) clothing.

That was mean of you to be sarcastic to heartbroken.

I tested my breeding Labs when the test became available and was shocked to discover three of them are affected with EIC. They have never experienced a collapse (to the best of my knowledge), nor have any of my puppy buyers ever mentioned anything -- and I try to keep in contact with them. However, now that I know, I always breed to a clear. No point perpetuating a problem -- even one that is apparently innocuous -- when it's so easy to breed around. That's not to say I haven't had moments of depression when I've discovered a male I want to use is a carrier and I can't take the risk! If my bitch were clear I would, but not when she's affected. Why saddle a poor pup with the potential for collapse if it can so easily be avoided?

One other thing for windycanyon: All of my females get the same clearances as the males.

FWIW, my affected Labs are now 9, 6 and 3 1/2. The youngest is a gorgeous male - my best home bred pup ever. On the plus side, he doesn't know or care:-) He lives a pampered life with me regardless!

I also assume the stud dog owner has a say in such a breeding, and as the owner of an EIC carrier stud, I would never allow him to be bred to anything but a tested clear bitch. I have had breeders ask if I would make an exception, which surprised me, but I am not willing to risk producing affected dogs when it is such an easy thing to breed around.

I too have been disappointed to learn the stud I really liked was an EIC carrier (my bitches have all been carriers), but like another poster suggested, I have been able to find relatives or an equally nice pedigree on a clear dog. I also looked at dogs I otherwise might not have thought of. There are a lot of nice stud dogs out there, and more and more people are testing their boys, so finding a nice EIC clear boy is much easier now than it was a few years ago when few were testing and there were more unknowns than anything else.

I'm not sure what or why you were referencing me here, but I just wanted to add that my girls are tested for everything as well. The 2 pups I referenced as being Affected (or suspected in case 2) were born prior to the release of the test. With the test, we never should produce an EIC (or CNM, or PRA) affected pup again thankfully.

I would not provide a service with my EIC carrier dog to a carrier or affected bitch. I would definitely not breed an affected of my own to any carrier or affected. While there still seems to be a lot to learn about the various triggers and thresholds, if we believe in the test enough to send in our money and get it done, I think we need to listen to the people who are dedicated to helping us avoid problems in our breed. Surely there's a male out there that one could find that is clear that is also a compliment to the female.

If you really do not believe in the validity of the test do not waste your money, the answer is simple. Do not test your bitches.

Sorry; I should have referenced Pauline Mortier, not you. She mentioned that she only has girls now because bitch owners expect the stud dogs to have all the clearances. Mea culpa.

Gotcha, thanks! :)

EXCELLENT post Peggy - thank you! And thank you for taking ownership of your post, just as \\\'heartbroken\\\' did. (It is easy enough to just hover over his email address to see who he is, or to write to him and ask).